Give me that old time religion!

[rishi]

Sister G. said;



"Finally, I understand why so many people who are not religious think of religion as something negative. I thought that way too once.



It is sad, but just as in non-religious circles, many religious people have not experienced an awakening. Many religious and non-religious people walk without having their eyes open. Unfortunately religious "blind guides" seem to be more of a hypocracy than non-religious "blind guides" thus giving religion a bad reputation. And perhaps to some degree rightfully so, but there is a right time of awakening for everyone- religious or not. "



I have but two questions to you and others here at this point.



To what religion does truth belong?



What religion does truth need to remain true?
_________________
The Intent of the Master is the mastery of intent



Founder of the World Mind Society http://www.eoni.com/~visionquest

[sister goshe]

rishi,



If you are asking because you really want to know and are ready for the committment I am willing to tell you all about it. Send me a private message.



However, I think there may be a possibility that you are trying to out wit me (? if not, I'm sorry) ... with cryptic circle talk: "To what religion does truth have to remain true." What does that mean? Are you talking about the changeable nature of religions? My religion believes in continued revelation, personally and to the church as a whole.



I know what I know, and I know that God knows that I know, so I cannot deny it. If you are sincere, please email me and tell me what principles you know- I'll let you know if we agree.



Sincerely,
_________________
Sister G0$he

[rishi]

Sister G,



I said,



"What religion does truth need to remain true"? (read my post)



There is no ambiguity there, it's a very straightforward question. It deserves a straightforward answer, and in public, for everyone to gain benefit from.



Thank you.
_________________
The Intent of the Master is the mastery of intent



Founder of the World Mind Society http://www.eoni.com/~visionquest

[sister goshe]

"What religion does truth need to remain true"?



Truth remains true for all religions.



Truth remains true for all people.



Truth is true; that's why it is truth. (this is circle talk, ugh)





Perhaps you mean to ask: Which religion has the fullness of the truth?



If that's the case- that's a very different question, and if that is the question you are asking, I disagree with you. I do not think its right to post my answer publically- not on this site. I don't feel like I can give the proper attention to this website to respond to potentially numerous public responses properly. I would be happy to answer this question (in my humble understanding, from my perspective) privately, since each person's relationship with God is his or her own, and I can address you with the attension you deserve.



Besides- the purpose of this site is to discuss the celestine prophecy... the concepts in the book are in harmony with my religion. I have tried to respond to people's inquiries, I try not to push my religion. If I seem pushy, it is not my intension- I'll work on that...



My religion is held by many others- it certainly isn't esoteric or secret- the truth is available to all. My personally testimony and witnessing, however, I hold sacred and share when I am inspired to share it. Not when pressured to. I'm sorry- I hope this isn't discouraging.
_________________
Sister G0$he

[sister goshe]

rishi.



just to let you know- i have printed (I have a hard time reading long articles on screens- don't worry i'll recycle the paper!) your two long posts- the artical about spiritual community and your statements on truth. I will be reading them very soon. I'll let you know what I think...



with love,
_________________
Sister G0$he

[chakratom]

[rishi]

Sister G,



ChakraTom in essence makes my point.



You said,



"Truth remains true for all religions.



Truth remains true for all people. "





My point is that truth does not need religion to exist, nor does the lack of religion make truth even one atom less true.



Although I agree that the truth remains true for all people and religions, I would add that truth does not run unblemished IN all religions. There is no dogma, faith or second-hand story-telling in truth, no creed, no "viewpoint", no orthodoxy. Truth simply IS, regardless of how anyone may like to see it, or make religions out of it.



It is said that "a thread of truth runs through all religions alike". Why settle for a thread or two? Why not skip the "middle man" and just deal with truth on its' own basis, without the "rose colored glasses" of religious misperception?



My thanks by the way for printing and reading those articles, and I look forward to any comments you may have about them.
_________________
The Intent of the Master is the mastery of intent



Founder of the World Mind Society http://www.eoni.com/~visionquest

[Reverend Loush]

ok i see some people still don't get it! rishi you told me to look at history and i have looked at it my whole life and understand the history of my religion better than most ever will! i know what happend in the past but i refuse to be stupid enough to blame religion! it is NOT NOT NOT NOT AND I REPEAT, NOT religion that has made people unequal! nor is religion to blame for the wars and murders of the past! oh no! i will not give in to that silliness and let responcibility fall on the wrong partie! it is people who did all that, not religion! it is people who in arrogance and misunderstanding of their own religions have hated, and commited war, and killed people! guns do not kill people! people kill people and use guns as weapon just like people throughout history even till this very day have used religion as an excuse! but it is not religion! it is people make no mistake! you have the amreican syndrom of turning murderers into monsters instead of just calling a spade a spade and saying that is one corrupted soul who did wrong! but a murderer is still a human and to dehumize them lets them off the hook! "oh its not their fault its a sickness they an't help it, they're a monster"! no i will not fall into that foolishness ever again! if a human chooses to participate in evil they are still human, and responcible for they're own actions! i have been hurt by other christians my whole life, and by pagans, and atheists, and many others! but it is Not their religion that i blame! wouldn't that be too convient of me to give them that out instead of holding them responcible! no i will never fall back to that ludicris way of thinking! religion is not responcible for the sins of the world! its job is to reconcile people to truth and love and a relationship with God! place the blame where it belongs on the actions of disturbed PEOPLE, PEOPLE, AND PEOPLE! ya know, i know what you think! but you are wrong and that is all there is to it! your perception of history is saddly lacking in any real power and substancce! do you blame your parents for your life and your mistakes! i should hope not! i hold my self responcible for all of my own sins! if i made a mistake then it is my mistake and no one elses, and no one else is to blame! and it is God who lets me learn from my mistakes! and if i did something right than i did something right and it was because God gave me strength and grace! all of you who keep bashing religion just don't get it and probably never will! it is not the fault of any religion or organization that bad things happen! it is the people who belong to religions and orginzations who twist them to support their own misguided veiws who are the cause of all the pain in the world! once i was unwise and unknowing enough to think like you and blame other people for all of the hurt that was wrought upon me! even when i forgave my father for beating me countless amounts of times in my childhood i still blamed him! you still don't get do you? my life is my own! if i pass the buck to someone else where am i? what does that make me, a bistander in my own life, not really living or participating in my life but watching from the side lines! i no longer blame my father for beating me when i was little! i have come to the place of revelation in my life and i see that when i was in heaven before i incarnated, i asked God to send me here, as me, with my parents, to live my life, this life! despite what others think, i did not see the best case scenario! i saw what would happen and came anyway! why you ask! to you that is the worst kind of folly! but oh no i asure you i did it with all fullness and awreness of what my choice would bring me! i looked down and saw my grandmother and knew that she would be the catalist to push me early into the next phase of my evolution and i said please God, even though it will be hard, and painful, and utterly dark at times, i know that i am ready to go through that to get to where i need to be in my relationship with you! i will take the beatings if only i can be raised by that woman there! i chose her as surley as God chose me to complete certain tasks while i was here! and i came and how i suffered! and you know what! i am all the better for it! i am proud of what i have accomplished within myself! and i would without hesitation go through it all again and more and never change a single second of it! beacuse without it i would not be who i am today! you think this is maddness talking! because you still don't understand! i gladly take up my cross, for i am no better than my master! but he has brought me up into himself and exualted me as i have exaulted him! although i was not worthy, my master through his sacrifice and triumph, and through the struggle of the journey that he gave me has made me worthy! and still you don't get it! most people don't and never will untill their next time around when hopefully they will reach their evolutionary jump! i hope they make the leap for nothing is more enriching and fullfilling than when you experiance God's love and truth as the driving force and power with you! you will mock everything that i have said here, but that is ok! those who have ears to hear let them hear! despite what my religion tells me i have made sacred utterance infront of those who do not know! i hope in doing this that it will begin to awken the people from the dark dream and slumber that they may have been in! life is religion and one does have to have that to be in awareness despite what they may think! thank God for the cover of religion which has covered my multitude of sins and born me a new into the fullness of the awreness that i have experianced! hopefully more experiance will come now! i thank God for the covering of religion! it covers my head in sacred veil and protects me from the damage i would do to myself if i listend to other people instead of my own heart! to what religion does truth belong to? religion is life and truth belongs to all of life that is my answer to you! and yet you still don't undertand! you will continue to blame religion for the actions and reactions of people instead of holding them accountable! you will not be changed by my post, and that is ok! one day, when you come to the palce of truth you will change despite yourself just as we all do! it won't be now i don't think! nothing i have said here will make a bit of difference but it made a difference to me to be able to say out loud what i know and what i have experianced, and to speak my truth! it has helped clarify the truth for me! so thank you, because i have gotten something out of it even if you have not! i once forgave my father for all the evil he did to me! now rishi and all of you, hear this power! i forgive my self for all of my sins because God has forgiven me and gave me that power! and i also forgive everyone else for doing evil to me by blaming religion instead of people for their own actions! forgivness is born from the goodness of the light of the love of God, and from his merciful kind wise grace! i have experianced God in this discourse! now not only do i know the power of spaeking my truth, but now i know more than i ever have in my own life what the truth is! and that is true healing, and that is true insight, and that is the Celestine prophecy for me!

blessed be all of you with the love of God's eternal undying truth!

bb

L
_________________
Rev. Loush O'Raven

Blessed be most excellent!

[sister goshe]

In response to previous posts and clarifications on my perspective:



I agree that one does not NEED religion to be "in touch," but I have found a deeper more profound relationship with God through religion.



In reference to the Truth; Most Dreaded and Useful paper posted by rishi july 11th: "To even suggest that it {truth} is such a thing {the guiding principle of the universe} as TRUTH which guides reality rather than human whim or desire, is to evoke considerable anger, fear and indignation from a human being. Given this, the human mind has even fashioned God in it's own image..."



First, this anger and fear is why I am so cautious and will continue to tread lightly. Secondly, I disagree with the second statement. I think that there have been numerous witnesses that have testified in all soberness that God does in fact have a body and we are in fact fashioned after Him.



This arguement originates in my belief that the scriptures are the holy word of God, so far as they are translated correctly, and that I believe them to be true revelation from God to his children on Earth for our benefit. If God loves us so much, why wouldn't He bless us to know Him and His will for us?



This dives into the belief in who and what God is. According to On the Need for a Clear Direction-Finding Our Way in Community paper posted by rishi (no date, sorry), the following is a point of importance: "The recognition of that which the Western world calls 'God,' and which the Eastern world calls, 'Consciousness' as the prevailing force and intelligence that is seen running through all natural forms, including ourselves."



In trying to understand how 'Consciousness' could be considered the same(?) as 'God', I would like to argue that I understand the concept of consciousness and consider myself to have a relatively high state of awareness, but do not consider myself God, nor do I consider the fact that I grow more conscious & aware that I have more of God in me.



When someone is conscious or aware of himself that is a great start, but God-like qualities are still a choice. I think people must still consciously choose the right and practice being God-like.



I think that as we become more conscious we realize what is true for everyone- wether they are aware of it or not: that we are all God's spirit children and heirs to all that He has. We are all designed to inherit all God's glory and become kings and queens in heaven. As we grow to be conscious of this we begin to accept His reached out arms and blessings. It is so beautiful!



Back to the Truth paper... This is beautiful: "The test of our wisdom is not in our ability to acquire knowledge, but what to do with that knowledge after it is acquired." I completely agree. I beleive we are sent to earth to acquire bodies and to see if we will be obedient to God's will.



I like this too: "The purpose of the denial of truth is simple, THE AVOIDANCE OF RESPONSIBILITY." I think we are in fact responcible to live the principles we understand. Bad things (we get stuck and do not progress, aka hell) happen when we do not live the principles we know, and blessings (happiness, revelations, peace of mind, enlightenment, etc...) come when we do what we know is right and true. As a believer of my religion, this begins with keeping the Ten Commandments. God has given us rules to set us free. He has blessed us with them because He wants us to be happy.



Love God

Love eachother

keep the sabbath day holy

honor mother and father

thou shall not kill, lie, commit adultery, covet, steal, bear false witness.



This sounds pretty good to me! I think the tough one for the non-religious is keeping the sabbath day holy. I don't think it really matters what day it is. I think it is most important to set aside time for God on a regular basis. I think there is great importance in gathering together with other believers for community and fellowshipping sake. I also believe in the importance of taking the sacrament to renew my baptismal covenants each week- but that is another subject entirely...



Back to the Truth paper: "To acknowledge truth is to realize that life itself, (...) has meaning and purpose of a specific nature." "... that means we as human beings are NOT at liberty to make up whatever we want about life." "If it {modern social structures} did acknowledge truth then... religious faith would become clarity, ...logic would replace randomness, clear reasoning would transcend gossip and blind following, ... and wisdom would arise where there had once been only ignorance." This is all beautiful and I find these things happening in my religion.



The story of the three blind men and the elephant illistrates a good point about ignorance and perception. I tread lightly here- it is crucial that we learn to perceive truth properly. We have no other way of learning than to perceive it somehow. I receive confirmation of truth from God through his Holy Spirit. It's no so much a feeling that is perceived by the five senses, as it is a "warmth" in my heart, a "pressure", a "pressence" of His Spirit. Similarly, I can receive acknowledgement in my prayers, guidance in my supplications and answers when I ask the right questions.

If you ask God, in the name of Christ with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, He will manifest the truth of it {the scriptures, or whatever} unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost. "And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." Moroni 10:5.



In the Truth paper, it is stated that "On the religious scene we see that every faith says 'our God is the only God', and/or that 'our scriptures are the highest among all' while the same time taking great pains to avoid factual discussion, or logical analysis of their own beliefs." I disagree. I my religion we encourage diligence in studying the scriptures and the truth of them. Each individual is encouraged to find out for himself whether each principle is true. Often I am told "Have you prayed about it?" I have undertaken studies of many other religions in effort to find the truth and as I learn to understand other religions and have a greater appriciation for them and wheere people are coming from, my studies reffirm the truth of my religion over and over again.



I will stop here, since I have addressed what I felt I needed to on the Truth paper to my satisfaction. There is much still I have to say about the Community paper.



I hope that I have not offended anyone. I have tried to phrase my sentences beginning with "I think" as often as possible to emphasize that I, personally, do not have all the answers for eveyone.



I welcome your responses.



With love,
_________________
Sister G0$he

[Reverend Loush]

don't worry sister goshe! your always going to offend someone no matter how nice you phrase things! me personally i am past the point f careing! i seem to offend people with the fact that i am alive and dare to have an opinion all my own different from theirs! i think now that people need to be offended sometimes in life! if our sensabilities are not offended; if we are not challenged than we can not grow! a prophetess once spoke a word over me and two weeks later i read the very phrase in a book on prophecy and growing in that type of gifting! the phrase says "God offends the mind to reveal the heart"! i wholeheartedly believe that! it is one of my great spiritual religious truths! there will always be criticism and judgment from people and it will affect you and hurt you if you let it! i won't anymore! there will always be hollow voices devoid of substance that fall silent when the light of truth and love and wisdom and reason confronts the shadows that they bring! you brought up some very good points sister goshe! thank you for your continued beautiful presence here on this site! you are a light to me! i had started to loose hope that anyone who truly understood the insights were still here and that the site had fallen to darkness! but then you and michelle, and two or three others gave me back my hope for the future of the celestine groups! thank you all for that! yall are an inspiration to me! my religion teaches me judge not lest ye be judged, but i can't help myself this time! i judge yall to be good medicine lol!

bb

L
_________________
Rev. Loush O'Raven

Blessed be most excellent!

[michellepetkus]

Thank you Reverend, you are very sweet. The one thing I have noticed about this site is the percentage of people who post in relation to the number of people who are registered is rather small. So though only a few may post that doesn't mean that many more aren't listening. They are just more private about their thoughts. And if they are indeed just listening all the more reason for the ones who do talk to keep posting. I know for me no matter what the subject or tone of the conversation I'm always walking away with a little more insight.



Sincerely,

Michelle

[Reverend Loush]

my thoughts and feelings exactly! that is the point of this topic to me! i hope and still do that by sharing our truths in a tolerant manner that we could all evolve together in the way of slowly making the tenth insight realized to the best of our current abilities! peace be with you dear one!

bb

L
_________________
Rev. Loush O'Raven

Blessed be most excellent!

[rishi]

Dear Rev. and Sister G;



I understand the truth of much of what you said, along the lines of the principle, "guns do not kill people, people kill other people". It is of course correct to hold people responsible for their own actions and not blame devices, institutions or religions, per se. I also understand what you said Sister, about your direct perception of God. However...



You said;



"it is people who did all that, not religion! it is people who in arrogance and misunderstanding of their own religions have hated, and commited war, and killed people! guns do not kill people! people kill people and use guns as weapon just like people throughout history even till this very day have used religion as an excuse!"



I would however like to add that nature has no religion. I might also argue that God has no religion and neither does truth. Is is PEOPLE who make-up religions, complete with rituals, vestments, altars, temples/churches, sermons, policies, dogmas, orthodxy, phrases and gestures, official positions on issues, scriptures and all that.



In essence, if you extract what is simply true from religion, what you have left is the simple truth, stripped of all these trappings I mentioned. And when this is done, the mountain of dogma that was there before has been reduced to a small pile of basic truth, of principles that are true of ANY religion, philosophy or system. That is the core of my point here. Although there is some truth in religion, that is more the result of the truth being undeniable in some small part, not because of the love of truth among humanity. Speaking of history, this fact is made quite evident by the long and winding road that has been religion. The past of Europe in the last dozen or so centuries has been rife with the various social problems caused by religion, not the social problems solved by it.



Basically, what this boils down to is gnosticism, honesty and logic. Gnosticism is a practice of direct perception that is embraced by a number of sects, and it's one that understands knowledge of God is a matter of Seeing into Its' nature rather than relying on the largely dogma-corrupted scriptures of orthodoxy. Gnosis comes from the Greek word meaning "to know" and this is an intuitive process of direction understanding without need of a middle-man priest, written texts or organizational structures.



That is not to say however that all intuition is necessarily correct. Any mind might have irrational biases that need to be checked for their authenticity. This is where honesty and logic come in. In science, a conclusions' validity is checked by experimentation and rigorous skepticism. When repeated experimentation shows a premise to be valid, then it gains credibility in the scientific community. Historically, religion is notoriously opposed to this kind of examination, which further shows their lack of credibility as a dogma-producing body. If in fact religion was true and correct to the degree they themselves claim, then they would not be so squeamish about a logical examination of their often erroneous beliefs. Copernicus for instance was placed under house arrest and labeled a "heretic" for presenting the fact that the Earth orbits the sun, not the other way around, (the Church claimed that the earth was the center of the universe). The Dark Ages were, for example, a 1000 year period of Euorpean history where almost all science was either suppressesed, ignored or forsaken due to the rigid orthodoxy or the Church. Religions have in almost every historical case been an opponent of open mindedness, free examination, critical debate and logical thinking. For this reason it has been one of the most backward and destructive forces known to man. I wont even go into its' political effects.



And yes, religion is made up of people. But that does not mean religion cannot be blamed for those who compose it, for religion is a human-created structure of belief, one that is often blind, (faith). There is no religion in nature or in truth. The spiritual practitioner, as an ally of truth, rejects religion for these reasons and more, in favor of not only the gnostic apprehension of fact, but it's logical, honest analysis for the sake of accuracy and reality.
_________________
The Intent of the Master is the mastery of intent



Founder of the World Mind Society http://www.eoni.com/~visionquest

[chakratom]

This thread has us all saying the same thing, as I observe it...



Religion is a private thing, no? It is up to the individual to make up his mind, and one common theme in pretty much all religions is one of an end, a finish, like going to heaven.



This doesn't sit well with what I feel is the truth, that the universe is infinite, so is human consciousness, and there lay the rub.



I just find negative energy to be useful until one can understand it, then it is not needed to advance one's spirit, so guilt in the catholic religion is a no-no by such standards, and the Crusades, the Knights Templar, and many other fanatical groups have hid under the cloak of religious righteousness.



This debate will continue until we are all one again, according to how I interperet the Mayan calendar and 2012, so cheers to everone who is in on it, like Rev said, it is sometimes necessary to offend to help, but why is it so important to help anyone else, especially someone on the internet that you may never meet? Perhaps it is wiser to focus on one's SELF...



Peace



Tom
________
Ferruccio Lamborghini

[aLx]

but isnt others also the self? i believe the others our just souls mirroring our self, our oneness. it is us looking at ourselves in different ego. i think our problem here is ego, we seems to individualize and separate ourselves from others. in fact there is no other, it is just the self(God). ego separates us from the self. just like lucifer did, he built his own ego. he thinks he can be equal to God, coz he knows that he is capable of. but he havent realized that he is one with God. he cannot compete with himself. that is the parable...



there is no other, just the self.



just my thoughts...
_________________
If God is our target destination, we cant miss. God is so big. He's everything, we have nowhere else to go.