Hello and Just wandering

[aliendancer]

Sorry if this post seems negative to you all but I have a real questions in this post for those who follow a spiritual path.

I believe that the ideas presented in the Celestine Vision are sound and can help bring in a better future but I also believe that we can learn from the insights of people like Abraham Maslow who developed the hierarchy of needs theory. I honestly believe that unless those of us who are fortunate enough to have our basic needs like food, shelter, and security met are willing to work to ensure that the remaining 85% of the worlds population can also have their needs met its not gonna happen. Quit frankly I don't see that happening among the majority of people that consider themselves pursuing a spiritual path although many enlightened leaders of the past and present such as the Dalai Lama, Thich Nhat Hanh, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, just to name the most notable expounded such actions to their followers.

I read through the social justice forum here to get an idea on what the thoughts on social action might be among people who were reading Celestine series of books. I myself have just finished the Twelfth Insight. Although I did see a few relevant posts with which I could concur I was disappointed to see so little activity in this part and so many posts that suggested simply praying or sending positive energy would solve the problem (yes it can help but but must be followed up with action). After all the good Samaritan in the Bible didn't bend down lay his hand on the man's head, pray and move on. No he bandaged the man's wounds, took him to an inn, cared for him further, and when he finally left gave the innkeeper funds to see to the man's further needs. Prayer is good but useless if is a substitute for action.

I saw many posts here about the environment and I certainly believe caring for it is important but frankly 85% of the people in the world don't have their basic needs met, they cannot and will not worry about the environment until they have enough to eat, a roof over their head that provides adequate shelter from the elements and feel secure.

Eating "organic" food is a privilege of those of us who have more than we need to survive.

what I'm saying is if we don't work to insure that there is social justice for all I don't see the future predicted by the prophecies happening.

And one last question - in the quotation thread I saw a very disturbing quote by Ayn Rand. There was no comment made about the quote so I could not be sure what the author was trying to say but if agreement with the quote was the point then you seriously aren't going to achieve any degree of social justice from that point of view nor do I want to live in the reality that Ayn Rand portrays in her book.
_________________
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"If you have come to help me, you are wasting your time; but if you are here because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together."

Lilla Watson

[Inedible]

We are well over 6.9 billion people on the planet now.

http://opr.princeton.edu/popclock/

Increasingly a smaller % of the population has been gaining control over a larger % of the world's resources than ever before. It isn't the people buying organic and using renewable resources that are the problem; it's the people who don't think their billions of dollars are enough. Trying to take what they have by force would only increase the fear they feel.

To the extent that we have choices that help the world, we should try to choose them. For the most part, the focus should be on fixing ourselves.

[SL]

Hello aliendancer,

I am the one who started the quotation thread and have made the majority of the posts within that thread.

I'm going to respond to your comment about the quotation you ascribe to Ayn Rand because I feel there is something you have misunderstood fundamentally, about the quote, as well as about the thread.

The quote you are referring to was not from Ayn Rand, but from Alan Greenspan, the former head of the Federal Reserve Bank for over 18 years. The quote specifically explains the reason for inflation. It exposes that the phenomena of inflation is not the result of economies 'evolving' but is in fact rather a conscious manipulation designed to steal wealth.

I do not normally comment upon the quotations I post. I am one who tends to believe that you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. When I started posting the quotations, I felt there was a possibility to catalyze certain thought processes in others by making certain concepts available on a public forum such as this. It seems obvious that our mainstream media is not interested in sharing higher thought concepts among the masses. It is far more profitable to feed the lowest common denominator rather than the highest common denominator.

I cannot connect the dots for anyone, I can only offer the dots that I see are there to be connected. Seeing the larger patterns in our world today, and in the history we all share leading up to today, is an individual responsibility. No one can do it for another.

I have posted quotations from far more 'evil' people than Ayn Rand, and yet you have made no comment about these. I can only assume that the Alan Greenspan quotation, being the very first post in the thread, has so offended you that you have not spent any time with any of the rest of them.

I will share with you the statement I have been making with each post since I started posting quotations:

"THINK... Consider that this man or woman made this statement at this point in time about this subject. Consider what this reveals about why we are where we are, here and now."

The preconceived notions you reveal that you have in your post here are exactly the sort of self-created limitations that lead to war and divisions among people, financial or otherwise. There is no difference between prejudice among democrats and prejudice among republicans, communists or capitalists. All of these self-perpetuating myths and systems and organizations have at their core a foundation of dualistic thinking.

It will only be the collective rejection of the old paradigm that will allow a new paradigm to emerge in our world. What that will look like, if it happens at all, will require all of us to be free, literally and undeniably, as individuals. To explore a world where our unity is the core foundational principle we will have to allow others this same freedom we claim for ourselves.

I hope that you hear my response to you in a conversational tone. There is no anger in me about your comments, only the desire for clarity. It is in this space that I have taken the time to explain these things about the quotation thread and my motivation for it, to you.

Peace,
Steve

[aliendancer]

The only issue you addressed in your post was the last which was more an aside in my post. That I confused Alan Greenspan with Ayn Rand came from the nature of your post and admittedly because I wasn't paying attention except to the fact that this was printed in Ayn Rand's publication and is an idea with which she certainly would be in agreement. You are correct that I find the ideas of Ayn Rand offensive. I have read two of her books when I was much younger, considered the ideas therein and utterly rejected them.

The main reason for my post was what came before the aside about Ayn Rand. that part of my post you completely dismissed with the with the insulting statement that "The preconceived notions you reveal that you have in your post here are exactly the sort of self-created limitations that lead to war and divisions among people, financial or otherwise. " After which you stated "I hope that you hear my response to you in a conversational tone." Frankly your entire post had a condescending tone, it is obvious that you believe you are more intelligence than the average person.

The "collective rejection of the old paradigm" is not going to happen as long as there are people living in abject poverty without the means to even contemplate a different paradigm. It is up to people who have the advantage to contemplate such a paradigm to help them reach better circumstances. Those who are too selfish, greedy, or lazy to do so are living in a state of spiritual poverty as great as the physical poverty of those they will not help.

I have only returned to this forum because I received an email that someone had respond to my post. As I stated in the first post the ideas presented in the Celestine Vision are sound but don't address the community aspect of entering a "higher spiritual plane." I will again withdraw from the forum but may answer should you want to discuss the issue further.
_________________
--
"If you have come to help me, you are wasting your time; but if you are here because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together."

Lilla Watson

[starsapphire]

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." I honestly believe that unless those of us who are fortunate enough to have our basic needs like food, shelter, and security met are willing to work to ensure that the remaining 85% of the worlds population can also have their needs met its not gonna happen.
Quit frankly I don't see that happening among the majority of people that consider themselves pursuing a spiritual path although many enlightened leaders of the past and present such as the Dalai Lama, Thich Nhat Hanh, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, just to name the most notable expounded such actions to their followers. "

I do so agree with what you said here:) I believe what you said about people that consider themselves pursuing a spiritual path is key to understanding the amount of illusion and glamour that is attached to the so-called spiritual path and always has been, I'm sure. The glamour attached to enlightenment, prayer, being psychic, being a so called healer, speaker etc. Then, these so called enlightened souls are charging up the ying yang for their services-- How much goes to charity and helping others??? It's sad but it's true:( A friend of mine wanted me to sign up to sell this Health product. The product was wonderful! I was feeling so much better and more energy etc. However, my reason for pulling away was because this well known company was "Mostly" about the money. I thought to myself," If your making billions why are you only giving a couple million to help others in need. Why don't you "sacrifice" and take this product to all the starving children in Africa let's say just for starters? But, they all claimed to be such spiritual people of course? Not by my standards. If their's nothing in it for the ego then chances are most would not participate? No notoriety, no recognition, no money - Any Master will tell you that the true spiritual path is "not" lined with roses but with thorns:( So goes the saying, "Many are called, few are chosen, fewer still make it".



" Although I did see a few relevant posts with which I could concur I was disappointed to see so little activity in this part and so many posts that suggested simply praying or sending positive energy would solve the problem (yes it can help but but must be followed up with action)."

This comment you made should be a wake up call to everyone but, it more than likely will fall on deaf ears.


"what I'm saying is if we don't work to insure that there is social justice for all I don't see the future predicted by the prophecies happening."

On this I would tend to not agree with you. Yes, it is our responsibility to make the needed changes and it is we who put these causes into effect a long time ago. EACH one of us has contributed if not in this lifetime then in others and we are all going to witness what happens when we put ourselves, our selfish needs , greed, the me ,me syndrome without any thought for the planet or for others. However, this is a planetary as well as universal leap so our space brothers will be there to assist because otherwise we will destroy this planet and that cannot happen as it has on other civilizations which had it's effects on other galaxies. It was promised, it is our Hope for the future. So, it's not just about us this time.

Your insights are well appreciated, your questions and words are filled with wisdom. Thank you

[aliendancer]

Sorry I didn't answer sooner I am very active politically and things in that area are getting busier all the time. I finally decided I would take the time but this may be briefer and not as well thought out as I would like.

I'm glad to see that someone else sees the relationship between the spiritual path and serving others. I am thinking of once again of leaving my church because of an issue very similar to the wonderful product you describe. My church is a very accepting liberal church that brings spiritual healing to many yet for the second time in a brief span of time they are offering one of those positive type thinking classes that encourages giving. I think generosity is a good thing. In my opinion it is a better thing when given to people who are hungry otherwise in need than when it is given to a church/ Problem with these type events in a church is that they encourage giving with considering the economic reality of poorer members. They often encourage these members to give more than they can afford implying that for such giving the universe will reward them. When that doesn't happen then the poorer member blames them selves for not believing enough. That's the kind of mentality so prevalent today among the spiritual. In my opinion those who are better off should be finding ways to assist the less fortune not extract money from them to help run a church.

Sorry if the above is slightly off topic it's the current situation in my spiritual community and it makes me very angry. I have stated my opposition and am ignored.

I have tried to bring up this topic in several different spiritual venues outside of my church and just as you noted it falls on deaf ears.

you wrote "On this I would tend to not agree with you. Yes, it is our responsibility to make the needed changes and it is we who put these causes into effect a long time ago. EACH one of us has contributed if not in this lifetime then in others and we are all going to witness what happens when we put ourselves, our selfish needs , greed, the me ,me syndrome without any thought for the planet or for others. However, this is a planetary as well as universal leap so our space brothers will be there to assist because otherwise we will destroy this planet and that cannot happen as it has on other civilizations which had it's effects on other galaxies. It was promised, it is our Hope for the future. So, it's not just about us this time."

I hope you are correct but the problem I see is that if we are not the ones that make the change within ourselves then it has no value. If some fixes the situation for us but leaves us unchanged then we will simple make a mess of our world again. If they change us so that we behave correctly them we are no longer ourselves and that is also problematic. I think it is up to each individual to see the need to change and to effect the change themselves. So whether its "space brother" or Gods I don't think it can be done for us. Again I hope your correct because right now seems there is way too much selfishness and hate in the world.
_________________
--
"If you have come to help me, you are wasting your time; but if you are here because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together."

Lilla Watson