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SL
Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 191
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MM2
Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 113
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:33 am Post subject: A Rigid Misunderstanding: An Opportunity. |
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I am extremely relieved that you posted this SL because this is how I thought you may have thought I was and that this rigid interpretation of my spirit is the base of why your control dramas in our conversation may have emerged in the conversation I posted called "Control Dramas Challenge #1".
I'm not trying to attack you but wish to examine the people who play a major role in directing the flow and pattern of spirit in the Celestine Community. You are one of those people I feel. I am only suggesting what I am logically and intuitively experiencing from the words you are posting so I may be wrong in my interpretation of who and what you are.
Regardless, I watched the video you posted and would like to discuss why I am not like Anis Mojgani in that video.
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My analysis of the spirit:
Anis is using several techniques to engage the spirit patterns of his audience. They all have certain spirit patterns that are the same due to the nature of their subconscious programming and thus due to the nature of their upbringing and environment (see the 6th insight). The audience appears to be young, naive and I'm guessing fringe like in that they try hard to remove themselves from society, the norm and anything that encourages them to conform. I am not like this as the logic behind portraying society as a protagonist is classic propoganda to motivate the conscious mind into action and to generate a feeling of unity between people who prefer to look at the negatives of society. In a way, these people are egotistical in that they elevate their spirit by upholding their values and beliefs above those of common society in a way that makes them too unique to engage with people who may be "trapped" in the system.
Why do I believe this about the crowd? Anis first uses rapid fire dialog to create an energetic atmosphere to rile up the crowd which has the added advantage that if he says something that doesn't mesh with what the audience believes, that the momentum of his dialog will pass over the moment and keep things alive even if they are incorrect. He is playing to emotion and using emotive force rather than logic and reasoning. Children and young adults succumb to their feelings more easily I feel because their connection to the subconscious is still strong and natural whereas "adults" have removed this connection in some sense making them more stable and reasonable in some ways...although I feel this is the problem that needs to be remidied in order for people to engage in true spirituality and the flow of life and to unlock their intuition more strongly....without losing their ability to think critically or rationally.
Another thing in the video that turned me off right away, was when Anis said:
| Quote: |
"rock out like you'll never have to open a text book again."
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This is down right scary in some ways. I can see where he is coming from, because if you forced students to look at text books for 90 hours a week, then the kids have a right to react against the textbooks, but I doubt this is the case and Anis is playing to the idea that studying textbooks requires discipline and strength, where most young people prefer an easier path.
I have mentioned already on this forum that I believe there needs to be more education and more structured but open education of the people in the Celestine Community. This means reading about how to debate correctly, to be knowledgable of proper writing formats, to know how to actively listen, to know how to think critically and be aware of your own bias through studying psychology and the formal sciences. Many of the people in this community are adults on the outside but through their words it is apparent that they are underdeveloped on the inside, much like the young people in Anis' audience except that their ego hides behind a specific view of spirituality that they gain self importance from.
There are many things that Anis says in his monologue in the first 1 minute that I do not agree with and see limitations in, but to keep this rebuttle short, I will leave it at that.
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BUT, I WISH I could rapid fire like that. Anis has a real talent for listing off his thoughts coherently and continuously. That is a real skill, he just needs to change some of the content so as to be taken seriously by people who have the awareness level to understand how conforming in some ways unlocks synergies in the human race which allows us to grow and increase our global awareness level so as to unlock a greater degree of beauty in this experience.
I thought he was only going to rapid fire for the first minute or two but NINE MINUTES? I can speak fast at times when I'm trying to impassion people with reason...but I can't do it and rhyme at the same time!
Right now with Make Poverty History I am moving through the momentum generated by this kind of energy and logic that Anis is spreading and it is responsible for many of the stereotypes of young people, but in those stereotypes is truth and if we let people like Anis run the government, we are going to be learning hard lessons that have already been learned from generations past.
But despite these stereotypes, the changes I wish to see, such as the end of extreme poverty, are moving forward and it is because sensible people can see that I am sensible, reasonable and open when they meet me face to face. If this were not so, none of the University Administration at the University of Alberta would be taking the ideas put forth seriously.
Last week I spoke with representatives from the Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA) and because we shared the same sense of balance in Canada's self interest and yet a desire to help the world, they took me in as different from normal people my age. It is why we now have meetings scheduled with CIDA staff rather than typical declines to overly radical ideas.
As it happens, making poverty history, at least the extreme type, is at last not such a radical idea for this generation. We have the means to end extreme poverty and it is a worthwhile pursuit that reason can take hold of and change a spirit pattern shared by over 1.2 billion human beings.
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Thank you for posting that video SL. I believe it gives us a place to discuss the stereotypes that are holding back deeper communication between you and I.
Look forward to your thoughts.
Mark
_________________
Pessimists find difficulty in every opportunity. Optimists find opportunity in every difficulty. |
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SL
Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 191
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:30 am Post subject: |
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Hi Mark,
Initially, I would like to tell you that my posting this link, and the two statements I made in the post, were intended as a compliment. I believe I have chatted with you since you were 14 or 15, isn't that correct? During this time period that we have occasionally had opportunities to speak with one another, I have always admired your willingness to engage and express yourself with others. The passion you have developed to fight world poverty I applaud.
My posting of this video link was something I did fairly spontaneously, for one, because I was deeply moved when I saw it, and wanted to share it with others. As I have been perusing the many posts for the last couple of months, I wanted to share it here. There is a purity and intensity of 'Be-ing', and much empathy, expressed in the three poems that I feel we can celebrate.
As you have written voluminously here in the forum over the last couple of years, you came to mind and I felt moved to give you some acknowledgment for mentioning me in one of your threads.
I felt that the performance by Mr. Mojgani was obviously, in my understanding, 'art'. In this instance, it was poetry, in the spoken word format. If poetry has any particular definition beyond a technical one, it is for me that the form itself is a verbal metaphor, an expression of human experience and feeling that may or may not resonate. As a metaphor, the meaning it has for a person lies in the perception of the one 'hearing' the metaphor. One person's understanding of a poem will differ from another's depending upon the commonality of experience one has, or does not have, with that particular metaphor.
You seem, based upon your reply to my post, to feel that I think you are like Anis Mojgani.
"I am extremely relieved that you posted this SL because this is how I thought you may have thought I was and that this rigid interpretation of my spirit... "
Why this would be a relief for you, I cannot fathom. It would not be true (or even kind) to compare you with Mojgani, he is several years older than you are, is an artist, musician and performer, quite obviously a completely different person than you.
For me, the connection I made was not from you to Mojgani, but rather from you to a couple of thoughts and feelings he expressed. For instance, the first poem in the video, "Direct Orders" brought you to mind because of the urgency of the orders referred to in the title. Your sense of urgency about world poverty is much like that, kind of a "if not now, when? if not you, who?" attitude, which I resonate strongly with.
I am unable to discern from what you wrote that you listened beyond the first minute of the video. There are actually three poems recited in it, each about 3 minutes or so. In the other two poems as well as the first, there is an empathy for others expressed which I, when posting the link, wondered whether it would touch you. As you did not mention anything of that nature about the video, I suppose not. Perhaps you could respond.
I think if I could offer anything to you right now, it would be the suggestion to take a look at the number and level of assumptions you tend to make when you are expressing yourself. It requires discipline and skill to focus on what is clear. Assumptions are never clear. In life, they may be necessary just to move from one moment to the next. But in a discussion, well, it reminds me of the moment when the prosecution asked O.J. Simpson to try on that glove during his trial, one of the more public displays of how an assumption can tear down the foundation of an argument.
But in a forum for public discourse, we really do not need to use assumptions. In fact, as we can see from reading a number of posts on this forum, assumptions are often where meaning becomes misplaced and distracted, if not downright forgotten.
As examples of the rate of assuming I observe in your posts, I will use your response to my initial posting of the link. I will paste below, starting with your third sentence, every other sentence in the first two paragraphs of your analysis of the spirit expressed in the Anis Mojgani video.
"The audience appears to be young, naive and I'm guessing fringe like in that they try hard to remove themselves from society, the norm and anything that encourages them to conform."
still speaking about the audience:
"In a way, these people are egotistical in that they elevate their spirit by upholding their values and beliefs above those of common society in a way that makes them too unique to engage with people who may be "trapped" in the system."
here speaking about Mojgani:
"Anis first uses rapid fire dialog to create an energetic atmosphere to rile up the crowd which has the added advantage that if he says something that doesn't mesh with what the audience believes, that the momentum of his dialog will pass over the moment and keep things alive even if they are incorrect."
and here you categorise children and young adults and juxtapose them to "adults":
"Children and young adults succumb to their feelings more easily I feel because their connection to the subconscious is still strong and natural whereas "adults" have removed this connection in some sense making them more stable and reasonable in some ways...although I feel this is the problem that needs to be remidied in order for people to engage in true spirituality and the flow of life and to unlock their intuition more strongly....without losing their ability to think critically or rationally."
It should be clear, if you watched the video, that we can not know anything about the audience. There is not a single frame of the audience anywhere in the video. There is some crowd response at various moments, but as they are all mature adult voices, any characterisation of them beyond that of, 'they are all adults' is indeed an assumption. That you go on to make a statement about the audience's a) egotism and b) their values in relation to common society is such a leap of assumption I do not know how, or even wish, to characterise it.
I actually searched for information about Mojgani to see if there was something I might not be aware of in terms of whether or not he does indeed espouse a particular political agenda. There is a Wikipedia article about him, and there are numerous videos posted of his performances, but I found nothing to give me any indication of what the purpose is behind his art. This situation is one in which I will then accept the performance at face value, that he is expressing from his own perspective, what he observes in the human condition.
What is he observing? To me it seemed he was expressing his empathy for the pain we all go through in this life, he seems to understand innately the idea of 'quiet lives of desperation'. He exhorts us all to live, and that fully. I find that sentiment beyond criticism.
In the fourth quotation up above, your statement to me seems very muddled and contradictory.
Mark, in your pursuit of more effective dialogue with the Celestine Community, I would really encourage you to look at how you are building your thoughts. It may be technically correct (in that it may be allowed) to debate based on an assumption, but I believe if one does, then there must be a common acceptance by all participants to work from that assumptive basis, if the other 'side' does not accept the assumption then there is no convincing argument to be made. Personally, as I remember my own experiences in classroom debating, assumptions were always considered ill-advised.
From a spiritual perspective, Don Miguel Ruiz has made one of the most well-known explanations for why assumptions should be avoided in our lives. His four agreements were a core part of the guidelines we agreed to in the last version of the chatroom. I think it would be more useful to describe our interactions in the forum, or in a chat, as conversations. To debate is by its very nature dualistic. And to me, this gets at the crux of the larger process within the Celestine Community, the larger spiritual community, and humanity as a whole.
Are we 'One'? If we are, what is the nature/purpose of the process we all seem to share in? Where are we collectively heading? What can we agree on when it comes to the concept of a global shift in consciousness? If we have no common ground upon which to base even our conversations then we are probably putting the cart before the horse and will not make much of a shift at all.
I believe I have made 3 or 4 posts/replies in the forum. In each one, I brought up this concept of Oneness, our collective Oneness. I feel that if that becomes the common understanding among all humans, then we might indeed be able to create something as yet unknown in three dimensional form. As that idea of 'Oneness' spreads, we may be able to re-think why we have the structures in society that we do. And from that altered perception about the more fundamental nature of reality, build a bridge to something different than our collective past, as well as our present.
Your purposes in what you post in the forum are always clearly expressed. In one situation after another you want to fix things external to you in the world that you find illogical. We all do Mark. I think the frustration you have seen in responses to your posts are based on the rapid dismissal of anyone whose response to your postings does not match your perception of logic, good debating skills and "proper writing formats".
I am, of course, not sure, but I could imagine that your own posts would be pretty colorfully marked up by any assistant professor of English. A linguistics or perhaps a semantics professor might also have some criticisms about your argumentation, if only because of the rate and depth to which you apply your own assumptions to help your own arguments. It seems disingenuous to criticise others for their lack of understanding for academic writing skills when it is quite clear your own spell checker seems to be erratic at best.
"Thank you for posting that video SL. I believe it gives us a place to discuss the stereotypes that are holding back deeper communication between you and I."
In this context Mark, I am all for a deeper communication, with you, as well as with everyone, here in the forum, and in the world we all engage with. It is my perception that before that can happen, we need common ground, and that common ground begins with whether or not we each perceive one another as a reflection of our Self, as another unique microcosm of the Whole.
In some way, in any conversation, giving the people you are interacting with that level of acknowledgment is in my mind, very necessary in order that all feel 'heard'... in order that all feel acknowledged as a necessary part of your experience. Because they are Mark, everyone who is in this forum is here, at your service... as you are here in service to them. This is the essence of dialogue, conversation and compassion.
As I said at the beginning, I do appreciate your work, your passion and your willingness to share. I would hope for you, that you felt the same way about all who contribute to the forum. It is a wonderful thing that so many, from such diverse backgrounds, can interact with one another at all, it seems counterproductive to criticise how they interact. It's like the old saying, "The amazing thing about a dancing bear is not how well he dances, but that he dances at all." When you consider the backgrounds and experiences of so many people... the emotional poverty some come from... the desolate physical circumstances people live with and in... the sheer effort it takes to actually be able to communicate in a language not one's own... that any of us found at least this place to interact is amazing.
It's hard not to love people from that perspective, don't you agree?
Peace
Steve
P.S. - I am going to leave you with a couple of things. Kelly and I have been working together on ways to bring about 'conscious conversations'. The Celestine Gathering was the first formal event we were involved with. We are working on putting together more of them. In researching how broadly the concept of conscious conversation is spread about, we have come across some interesting web sites. I recommend you do some googling on your own in this vein, but I particularly wanted to give you these links to specific essays. I hope you find them interesting, if not informative:
http://www.co-intelligence.org/P-dialogue.html
http://www.co-intelligence.org/P-converse1.html
"this is for the hard men, the hard men who want love, but know that it won't come" |
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MM2
Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 113
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:12 am Post subject: I Did Assume |
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Hey Steve,
I'm surprised in a way too. I did assume that you posted that video with negative intentions, intentions to expose limitations in my personality which would discredit my actions such as Make Poverty History.
I made that assumption based on the experience I had with when we last spoke in the celestine chatroom and I posted that discussion (not dialog as your links would probably suggest) in the Control Dramas Challenge 1. When we engaged in that discussion, it took a very predictable route to me. That discussion was quick, in the moment and to me showed some of your more natural thought patterns.
But your latest post to me, the one to which I'm responding now, is, even to me and all the reading between the lines and logic analysis, and rationality tests and emotive force indicators and diction choice I can see, is at a completely different level. I have no qualms with what you wrote last. Why couldn't we have a discussion like that in the celestine chat over Make Poverty History? I get the impression that you will say it was my own control dramas and drive to want to didactically engage you and speak from the ego, I truly thought I saw signs of irresonability from our celestine chat discussion primarily because the discussion we had was very much like ones I have read about and studied in philosophy courses where false logic and improper or unfair debate was taking place.
But this latest post in the forum is much more engaging. Well designed, consciously designed. I can believe that you posted that link for the reasons you stated in your last post.
But when I replied, I was thinking you were still coming from the place you were at in the celestine chat. It is clear to me that you were trying to put me into a box to try and distance yourself from joining the efforts towards poverty eradication that I was discussing (or so I thought, and still think based off of tha specific conversation), so I'm sure its not hard for someone to come along and see why posting such a video and saying it is like someone can be very off putting.
Your "new words" though make my assumption crystal clear and its actually more of a relief to acknowledge that I made that assumption. Unversity administrators generally view performances and people like Anis as very "risky" and "irrational" which makes them put up barriers to those people. Those kinds of barriers can be very detrimental to the work I'm doing with Make Poverty History at our University. Comparing me to that video in the way you did, with no explanation, could have been taken many different ways. In a way, I think it was irresponsible and insensitive to post something like that in the social action forum and then make specific reference to someone else and then not ellaborate on why you posted something that could be or could not be detrimental to a persons character. Its like posting a video of pedophelia and saying "this reminds me of steve" but the whole video is about a heroic man trying to stop pedophelia and when posting the video (lets say its me) I could say "well I posted it not because I think SL is a pedophile" but because I think he is the hero, just posting something that coud even peripherally relate to your image is damaging, particularly when you do it around human consciousness at lower awareness levels.
Did I take the best action. Probably not. I should have simply asked "why do you feel that video reminds you of me Steve?" would have been perhaps a better response, but then it could have looked like the "interrogator" control drama.
But there is a lot on my plate these days and I did want to make a comment that didn't seem half fast.
Thank you for the kind words Steve. I need to be more careful with my ability to assume and drag on past experiences that may not necessarily pertain to the present moment anymore.
I would prefer it though that if you explain a little more about how or why something reminds you of me, it might be more helpful. One of the main reasons why I think our MPH work has been taken seriously by our University professionals is because I have consciously made efforts not to appear like Anis in that video. Even though there are many beautiful qualities about it, I did watch the whole part including the part about empathy, some of those qualities could hurt your credibility.
If possible, could you keep this in mind whenever you speak about me please?
In truth, I brought this on myself. I need to be more careful especially when my energy is being pulled primarily towards Make Poverty History in contrast to "talking spiritual" on this forum or with anyone actually.
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But, I suppose one thing to do is learn and let live. I would enjoy having the dialog about poverty on this forum again with you and others SL just like we did in the chat room.
Thank you for the kind words about the video and the links to more information.
_________________
Pessimists find difficulty in every opportunity. Optimists find opportunity in every difficulty. |
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SL
Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 191
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Hi Mark,
After I read your most recent response in this thread, I felt I should respond in a comprehensive way. For that reason, earlier this week I put about 2 days into reading your material on the forum. I have put that much time into learning about your thoughts here because I, in truth, love you. And it is out of love that I spent the time reading and thinking, and now write back to you. It is out of my recognition of you as another aspect of myself. I see myself in you.
And so I offer you these thoughts. I felt it would be beneficial for this basic level of reflection, between you and me, to take place. You have repeatedly expressed your desire for a dialogue with me:
as you wish...
I will begin by saying once again that I applaud and encourage your efforts with the MPH and MV projects. Nothing that I will say in this writing is going to conflict with that sentiment. You were led to it, you feel the passion for it, you must, as a person of integrity, honor this in my humble opinion.
What I would like to suggest to you, and request of you, is that in reading this, you keep in mind certain themes that I will attempt to emphasize. They are personal integrity; the resulting lack of clarity when we try to create without integrity; and general, but genuine, differences in perception.
I'd like to reiterate that I have always enjoyed the interaction with you Mark. When you first came in to the room, you reminded me of myself. I also never felt inadequate in any conversation with adults, from an early age. Over the years, as I have met many people in life as well as from the chat room, I have begun to realize how uncommon that is.
People often don't feel confident they have anything to say, or that anyone is interested, or they don't feel like they know the words. Those feelings are there even after they begin to visit a chat room or a forum such as this. Oftentimes—in one way, all of the time—people reach out in a forum like this as the result of a long process, not simply the beginning of one.
It is the appreciation of the duality of our fellow members' experience that will illuminate our own duality.
Understanding this aspect of these forums and the people who visit them is where your age is apparent Mark. Over and over, and over again, you make statements that include demeaning phrasing about the people in the forum as well as in the chat and the spiritual community at large. In this thread, http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1951&highlight= you even make this statement,
| Quote: | | '... I feel that more energy needs to be directed into guiding the forum because as it stands now, the Celestine Community is attracting low energy individuals more rapidly than energy can be pumped in to bump up the awareness level.' |
Other quotes from other threads here:
| Quote: | | '...but most of the people here do not even apply their knowledge of the Celestine Insights themselves to these forum discussions. It is disappointing and I believe that James Redfield should appoint more focused guides to help direct the people here to utilize the information in the Celestine Vision rather than using this place as simply a place to find security and friends.' http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1618&highlight= |
| Quote: | 'But the more aware we become of how to write and express ourselves more masterfully through the written word, the more we can connect and communicate. The problem, and this is another spiritual pitfall, is that formal education is often looked down upon in "spiritual" communities because it feels too restricting or controlling...'
'I think if we focused more on proper debate and effective ways of expressing idea's that may initially conflict, we wouldn't have so much difficulty.'
http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1790&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 |
I asked you at the beginning of this post to keep in mind as you read this certain themes concerning integrity. As I read many of your posts on the forum, what you seem to reiterate in one thread after another is the level of disappointment you seem to feel about 'the Celestine Community' and how you think it should be 'better'. To me, it seems as if you have missed the major points of James' work. In this thread, http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1618&highlight= , Buttercup, in response to something rishi posted, had this to say:
| Quote: | rishi,
please consider...
where is the love in this?
i'm not feelin' it.
step one, always.....love. |
Your response was:
| Quote: | | I didn't comment on buttercups comment because it appears to be the exact posturing and cuddle talk that we have been trying to expose through this entire thread. |
I asked you to keep in mind the theme of integrity. Why? Because if we cannot maintain the integrity that we are all in this together, that we are indeed working towards something that requires all of us, as we are, then we will find and experience conflict with one another.
What I am suggesting to you is that your perspective is one that is not coming from a place of integrity. You are, when coming from and expressing these sorts of condescensions, in conflict with not only your 'Self', but in conflict with that which you say you are inspired by.
Love is the only rational explanation concerning the structure of the Universe, in my view. Love, in the sense of an ever-present Energy there to sustain all of our desires as sentient beings, is the only thing that makes sense of this collective experience.
If a person does not understand, inside, the Essence of the core platitudes that people throw around, it is from a lack of experiential Knowledge. Ideas like, 'be the change you want to see in the world', 'the way is the goal' or 'it is all good' did not materialize on sitcom television. They are real truths. I know, because I have experienced the 'truth' in them. Can I share that experience with you? Only descriptively Mark... And that is part of the revealing nature of age. It is like sex. No one understands what it is like to make love with someone, until they do. And when you know, you understand.
I do not mean to imply that everyone who has experienced, 'it's all Love' is therefore able to handle, in some mysterious altruistic way, someone pushing their buttons. We are who we are, and that we get a reaction rather than a response to anything we may say is not an indication that someone 'has issues' but merely that, in that particular issue, someone had an issue with our expression concerning it. That is neither definitive of them, or us.
To point to a statement such as Buttercup's and label it as 'posturing', 'cuddle talk'... something you and rishi were (in that thread) trying to 'expose', is to undermine pretty much everything that James has been trying to express for everyone who can hear.
If 'Love' is noticeably NOT at the core of your logic tree, then it can be that it will look as if you are utilizing the spiritual community for political ends. This is a conflict that is there for all to see, if that is the truth. What the truth really is, the truth of any situation, only time will reveal.
'Love' is indeed the foundation to all ideas, spiritual and otherwise.... Speaking from the 'Love' we each have in our heart is at the core of the 12th Insight, as I have understood James so far. Indeed, finding that love, for Self, as well as for all of our brothers and sisters is the primary concern of all truly spiritual information.
If that is not clear for you after all of your study then you may want to reconsider your world view, as well as your choice in forums. If the idea of an all encompassing love that supports all of humanity, the evil and the good alike, is not at the base of your unique perspective then you will always run in to moments where the talk you walk, will be in increasing conflict with whom you are involved.
http://theshadoweffect.com/
It is the core paradox for rational, intelligent people such as yourself, such as myself. We are not just thinking machines, we are also feeling beings. If we are persons of a predominantly rational nature, this does not imply that we are better than people who have a predominantly emotional nature. It merely hints at where we have to search for balance in our lives.
When I suggested to you that you come to the Celestine Gathering, your initial response was one of excitement at the idea of meeting James, hearing him, and perhaps even speaking with him personally. After those feelings had been expressed, your next line of thought was along the lines of wariness at being around people for whom expressing Love was important. This part of your nature must have been why rishi's thread was so appealing to you.
My remark about your age above I'll explain more fully now, in case you have not caught the gist of it yet. You do not seem to have developed an ability to feel, truly feel, another individual's pain. That inability says so much about your understanding of not only others, but yourself. The ironic thing about that is that only time will change this in you. It takes time to have perspective about some basic aspects of spirituality.
I would have rejected that idea at your age. It always pissed me off when people would tell me I would understand more when I was older. But, they were right. It takes time, not to 'know' more, but to have experiences which provide perspective, to balance, even cushion, what is known intellectually. With experience we have an understanding of how the unknowable and unpredictable flavor our experience. With experience, we understand how others can feel pain and joy in a myriad of situations, because we also have had these experiences.
As a young man I felt that I could see the key moments in my father's life when he had made 'mistakes' and I was determined not to repeat them. I even expressed that to him at some point in my twenties. He was surprised. What I had considered mistakes were, for him, decisions that had brought him the most joy.
It is not, however, the arrogance of your statements themselves that puts an unnecessary tension to the threads. It is the inability to empathize that causes the tension. This inability creates the disconnect when communicating. It even creates the perspective that another person should be able to understand you, IF they are reasonable.
This is demonstrably untrue. Wars have been started between reasonable people Mark. There are as many interpretations to a situation as there are sets of eyes observing it. I would have hoped that you have read the story of Plato's cave and given thought to the implications of that lesson.
I would like to point out how often you are given thanks in the forum. Despite repeated and unwarranted criticisms by you of the participants' 'low energy levels', 'poor writing skills' etc, you have, in so many very eloquent ways, been thanked for the valuable reflection you provide.
Do you understand where that gratitude comes from Mark? Most of the time, it seems you do not. You never really give the majority of the members on the forum any acknowledgment as co-Creators, with you, on the Earth today. The closest you come to that is when you are talking about collective responsibility for poverty. The gratitude expressed to you however, comes from their understanding and recognition of you in the most Divine way.
If you consider things from an energetic viewpoint, this would be where it seems to me from my reading of your material in the forum, that your energy is mostly on the receiving end here in the forum. If you respect and perceive 'energy' in the universe as a constant, as you imply in your writing, perhaps you will at some point wish to consider finding more balance in your exchanges in the future.
I will ask now directly, where is your gratitude, your recognition for the other members of the community you have spent so much time in interaction with—that you seem to care so much about... Is it there? Or are you simply passing through, providing, in your view, constructive criticism?
You see, this is my focus, if you have been following my posts. What can we recognize in one another? How can we look at one another and acknowledge, 'hey, he is me, and she is me as well...'? If that is not there in our interactions within this community, then we will not achieve any significant shift in the human experience. Understanding and recognizing and then actually LIVING the Oneness we all are is what will bring about a shift in our consciousness.
In my first response to you in this thread, I explained my perspective on the video link I had posted, and how it had spurred thought of you. On the one hand you acknowledged it while on the other you repeated your apparent desire to not be associated with anyone who has long hair, a beard and casual clothing. Correct me if I am wrong but I think this is what you are referring to with this quote:
'...because I have consciously made efforts not to appear like Anis in that video.'
For a guy like me, a statement like this indicates someone who has not yet found their personal level of comfortability in the world, someone who is striving on all levels to be as pleasing as possible. It is not indicative of someone who is at peace with themself. In our society however, this concern for outward appearance is considered laudable, encouraged so that one 'fits in'. And if you want a job, this is a profitable way to engage the world. We in the western world live, as rishi has spent huge amounts of time trying to explain to us, in a consumption-based society. A society where looks and appearances are the standard of worth, how judgments are made. Obviously, this flies in the face of pretty much all of the spiritual truths that touch the hearts of most people. Book after book, film after film, seminar after seminar, the consensus is that we should be who we really are.
Believe me, it is not that I don't understand that you are a man with a purpose and so want to do everything you can to realize your goal, however, at what price Mark? At the price of your own integrity? Was it Anis Mojgani's passion that made you cringe? It cannot really have been clothes and hair can it?
Consider this paragraph you wrote to me:
'Your "new words" though make my assumption crystal clear and its actually more of a relief to acknowledge that I made that assumption. Unversity administrators generally view performances and people like Anis as very "risky" and "irrational" which makes them put up barriers to those people. Those kinds of barriers can be very detrimental to the work I'm doing with Make Poverty History at our University. Comparing me to that video in the way you did, with no explanation, could have been taken many different ways. In a way, I think it was irresponsible and insensitive to post something like that in the social action forum and then make specific reference to someone else and then not ellaborate on why you posted something that could be or could not be detrimental to a persons character. Its like posting a video of pedophelia and saying "this reminds me of steve" but the whole video is about a heroic man trying to stop pedophelia and when posting the video (lets say its me) I could say "well I posted it not because I think SL is a pedophile" but because I think he is the hero, just posting something that coud even peripherally relate to your image is damaging, particularly when you do it around human consciousness at lower awareness levels.'
You know, when I read this paragraph and got to the line "It's like posting a video..." I started smiling because that is a classic rhythm and beginning of a funny metaphor, and towards the middle of it I was laughing. But when I arrived at the end of the sentence and realized you didn't say "haha" or "lol" I began to consider that you were being serious.
I would rather hope you had a good laugh because I sincerely enjoyed the irony of it. I feel a person's sense for the ironies of life, as well as a person's sense of his own ironies, is an indicator of personal growth.
But, just in case you were not being intentionally ironic, I will explain. In the paragraph I just quoted above, you make a broad assumptive generalization about university administrators' views on artists like Anis Mojgani. You describe how an association between a video of this artist and you, in a spiritual forum, through a 3rd person's (me) posting of it, could affect your plans for world poverty and the resolution thereof. You then draw an analogy of that by attaching my nickname to the descriptive that you used, doing to me what you felt had been done to you, although your example seems slightly more dramatic than what you feel I wrote. And in saying all of that you also manage to disrespect the people who read these posts by describing them as "consciousness at lower awareness levels."
When you said, 'I think it was irresponsible and insensitive to post something like that', are you suggesting that I, a 48–year–old man with my own lifetime of experience and perspective, should try to get in the head and perspective of a young college student in Edmonton, Alberta? That would tax even the best of us Mark, to try and think and feel as you do about these things. I rather think that it would be easier and more effective for all if you were more spiritually open, but that may indeed be self-serving on my part.
To review, the original post on this thread, was of a link to a performance video, and two lines making (from my perspective) a compliment to you. Everything else, is left for you to fill in the blanks. How you chose to do that, is something you have shared with us as you have.
Even aside from the fact that you do not seem able to see/feel what Mojgani is trying to express about our common humanity, do you not see what this train of thought implies about you, psychologically speaking? If Freud had read that paragraph, he would have had a field day. That may seem like a harsh thing to say, but if we are going to consider that we each contain "All" of it as a part of ourselves, then we have to consider that at times we are going to reveal those aspects of ourselves.
After I had been in Germany for about 6 months, I began to have bouts of irrational paranoia around my in-laws because I couldn't understand what they were saying. Stuff like that is not fun, and neither is it fun to have someone reflect that back at you. But if we are going to walk with integrity, we have to look at ourselves. We cannot shy away from our reflection when it is offered by others. In fact, we should have a sense of gratefulness for whatever is being reflected from others.
Which brings me back to my point about your relationship to your co-members in the Celestine Community. Gratitude for the reflection you provide to the community is regularly reflected back to you. Where is yours? It is a matter of integrity to give back, regularly, sincerely. When I say sincerely, I mean you need to not just understand it but also have the inner grace to accept it. This is the beginning of the end of being ruled by ego, and the start of living from the heart.
You will always be encouraged by me to contribute on the forum Mark. I do think and believe you have much to offer... as much to offer as you have to learn. Mastering the contradiction of feeling the need to give, as well as to receive, is inherent to the larger process we all share in, take part in, live in.
I had thought to wrap this up with some thoughts about your work with MPH and the MVs. I read your Make Poverty History thread. I also watched the video links and read the forum thread on the ewb.org site. It is clear you are learning very much and doing quite a lot to raise the awareness on your campus with regards to social justice issues. Again, I applaud you. I am always impressed with people who are prepared to give so much of themselves to larger issues.
I would suggest that you really listen to what the Engineers Without Borders people had to say to you, as well as the man named Boris who has been working in this field for years. These are not lightweights, nor are they ill-considered in their approach. They were very gracious and generous with you in offering their own experiences for your consideration.
As I said in our chat with Vongruzzly/Grahame, I do not believe poverty is a cause, but an effect. By the way, I had not read the posting of our chat (http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1790&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) until this week. I was surprised that the copy and paste job you did truncated the first half of our conversation. This seemed disingenuous to me. To try to prove a point about control dramas without providing the larger context and development of the conversation seemed kind of obviously self-serving to me. I was surprised no one asked about that in the thread. I am glad, however, that you posted it. There seemed to be a good conversation about it.
Anyway, after reading some of your thoughts this week, I was surprised to learn you have read 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman' as well as are familiar with David Icke and David Korten. And then of course, I was surprised to see this statement from you, in the same thread,
See, this is a pretty strange jump for me. In the Hitman book, as well as those other reference points (Icke, Korten, zeitgeistmovie.com is another example) our governments' (the USA's as well as the rest of the western nations of the world) history of creating war where there is no war, creating dissent where there is no dissent, is laid bare. And it seems to me, and most people who read and understand and accept the kernels of truth in those versions of history, that poverty is always what happens to people who have been abused by those with greater power.
I mean the following question only rhetorically: Do you really think that the people of Nigeria feel 'poor'? Do you really feel that the Pygmies of Papua New Guinea were glad to see white people? From what I understand, the people of Nigeria are angry, very. They are witnessing the natural resources that are a part of their inherent wealth being robbed by western oil companies. They have observed the governments of western nations support the local bullies with weapons and training to use those weapons against their own people, in return for access to the oil. They have watched as their children have been poisoned by the pollution created by these companies and their henchmen. And they are dying fighting them. YouTube - The Case Against Shell: 'The Hanging of Ken Saro-Wiwa Showed the True Cost of Oil' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htF5XElMyGI
From what I have read, the people of Papua New Guinea lived well. Not in a western sense, but in their own sense. And then along came western corporations and the associated government intervention into their natural territories and voila!—the rain forest started disappearing...progress had begun for the Pygmies...
You see now the tenor of my thinking along these lines? These are simply two examples of how 'we' create poverty. We are not going to 'solve' poverty until we solve how to live sustainably without taking from those weaker than ourselves. We are not going to eradicate poverty in our lifetime or our grandchildren's lifetime unless we eradicate the corrupting nature of our current economic structures.
For me, to get involved personally with any U.N. agency, government agency, or even any agency supported by charitable donations from any Wall Street-affiliated corporation, would be to inject my energy into a system that I, by my very nature, would prefer to see de-constructed. I prefer not to put myself into personal conflicts in this manner. I agree with Jiddhu Krishnamurti, that it is not logical to believe that a prisoner can change the nature of his prison from the inside. (My most recent posts in this thread http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10422#10422 are probably more eloquent than I could be at the moment.)
Suffice it to say, these are my opinions and perspectives on these matters Mark. Reasonable people can disagree. And reasonable people can agree that every person must find their own way to contribute to the shifting nature of human existence. As you work in the manner you see fit to work, so too, do I. I would appreciate your thoughtfulness in supporting the work I feel I am doing, as I support your work.
I would like to thank you for the patience and time I know you have put into reading this. It is the best I can offer you at this time. I hope that you feel heard, as well as spoken to.
In the future, as in the past, I remain, your friend...
Peace,
Steve
P.S... People are watching you Mark. YOU are watching you. Learn with enthusiasm where you are not coming from your highest place, your place where all of your integrity stands. If you are going to criticize writing skills in here, have the integrity to check your spelling. Follow through with concise, clear statements. Construct sensible and grammatically correct sentences. Be the good writer you would like us all to be...
I know you can be. |
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Grahame
Joined: 09 Jan 2009
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Thank you SL, for your considered and loving response. I realise you have put those thoughts together using Mark as your main focus (and for that I thank Mark also), however I found that much of what you said spoke directly to me. I recognised myself in many places, a self that is not always/or was not very apparent to me until I read your words. I have now entrusted myself to take even greater care to be clear on what I post to the forum in the future.
Thanks again
_________________
"Problems cannot be solved from the same level of consciousness that created them" - Einstien |
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MM2
Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 113
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:37 am Post subject: A Road to Progress appears |
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Hey SL,
In truth, I still have not read over your entire message with the depth that I normally do. Truly, if you would have sent this to me years ago or even a few months ago, I would have already replied to it in full. But in skimming my eyes over it, my subconscious picked out 2 areas that immediately do not resonate with me and feel I have reason to expound upon.
The first is when you mentioned the Celestine Gathering. I greatly appreciated the invite, as you noted, not because of James celebrity or authority which is one of the easiest ways to stereotype a "youthful mind". I am not a sheeple (sheep people) and do not follow trends solely because of the masterful marketing and charisma of a certain person. I believe these things are extremely important in causing change in our society as a whole since it appears in order to synchronize with the way society is now, the system, marketing and celebrity culture is paramount. In fact, it appears that along with a global government, global economy, and global language, there will be a global culture and it appears like that culture will be the celebrity culture we all are beginning to know all too well. Do I agree with it? Not in its current form, but utilizing this power is paramount if we are going to be intelligent and effective in harnessing the system to change the system.
I wanted to mention this because I feel it would be beneficial to the discussion that you understand how much I know and am consciously aware of celebrity power. Really, this is why I think James hides away from the forum, because he has this power and if he doesn't know how the system and society works, he could easily upset people and lose it...particularly in some of the fragile communities to which the Celestine vision seems to attract naturally. I was not wary about attending because I found out I wouldn't easily be able to talk with James. Organizing a trip like that on top of all the stuff I'm already doing was beginning to drain me especially since there was no support in dealing with the financial and travel problems I was going to have (I sent out some private messages about this). I have people at home who need love SL and I make the few times I see my family potent ones, so going through all that hassle not to meet the people who play a higher role in guiding the community was not the most "loving way" to use my time. You know, that is $1400 to get there when I could spend that money creating more impact over here with the people that are playing big roles here who can then spread even more energy around. In a way it is about synchronicity and loving all, but at the same time its about being intelligent, efficient and not wasteful.
The second thing that popped out was actually last few paragraphs in your reply. You said that you were surprised to hear me say some of the things about how poverty is the root cause of much of the global issues we are having after having read books like Confessions of an Economic Hitman and David Ickes books. I'm not surprised that you are surprised. In mentioning what I also know and have read about celebrity influence on western culture, I would also not be too surprised if you were surprised about my consciously awareness of how James celebrity would affect someone like me in my current position in society relative to his. This was one of the reasons why I wanted to start off with the first thing my subconscious mind pulled out.
I want to pull out the idea that you might be stereotyping me. I read The Truth Shall Set You Free 10 years ago and have been learning with that mind frame since then. This is why I disagree with your conclusion in your last few paragraphs which I see as a road to progress on the actually discussion of poverty eradication. Right on!
To say that higher powers create poverty and that is the actual root of the problem is not the root of the problem. The real problem may be the awareness levels on the planet. The average awareness taken across the planet is low enough that such inequality can exist (an imbalance). Poverty in its extreme form is much more likely to induce low awareness levels than those who do not live or even more powerfully, those who are born in extreme poverty. The extreme exploitation that occurs is mostly if not entirely because extreme and moderate poverty allows it to exist. The natural end of this extreme poverty will also result naturally in a redistribution as awareness levels increase relative to one another (notice that if the west stayed way ahead of everyone else, that conditions for extreme poverty and manipulation still exist).
Once awareness levels become sufficiently high, democracy usually becomes the prominent way of governance because the people are aware enough to fight for their human rights and participate in their government rather than be subsidence farmer focused only on day to day needs. Poverty, extreme poverty, is the ROOT of many of the extreme global issues we have today because it is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, influences on the global awareness level of our collective consciousness as the human species.
The system that allows for extreme poverty to exist is one developed through evolution of awareness levels. Sure there may be people and families in the backdrop of the worlds most powerful societies but they too operate by certain awareness levels and if a critical mass in society occurs and the medium awareness level reaches a certain threshold, then we can break into the Celestine Vision way of things or other spiritual paradigms of that nature as we suddenly "catch up" to them and become aware of the system we are in to the same degree. Technological unemployment is already beginning to take hold as mainstream knowledge like the 9th insight begins to speak about as well as many other perspectives.
So we should not really view the system as one that needs to be destroyed because it is still better than the medieval ages and the prototype societies back then. By viewing the system as the enemy, or the thing that must be destroyed, we are manifesting a situation where we are "against" the system. Sure there are aspects of the system that suck, ie. extreme exploitation of 1.2 billion people in the world along with half the worlds population is "lesser forms of poverty" but we should have the attitude of innovating and changing the system, synchronizing with it to use flow and our spiritual power to guide it into a more appropriate form given our values.
Moving away from the purely theoretical, it is my experience that those who take the "deconstruct" and "destroy" the system are those that isolate themselves in powerless communities that many people give the label "fringe communities". Even if this label is unfair, it still has power in the system and we need an intelligent activism that is aware of this and avoids it while utilizing it. Many people want to help, but they are "trapped" in the system. Politics is important and it takes high awareness levels to synchronize and understand the patterns and relationships it holds. Of course, there is a risk that once you try to synchronize with the system it can "take you over" and you too can get "trapped" but to those who have no desire for material possessions and truly explore with a spiritually open mind, they have a chance at synchronizing in a productive way with integrity.
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This is not a complete response to what you wrote SL and I appreciate the good things you did say. It might take me a while though and I do think that the last portion of this dialog is the most important (so far from what I've read).
_________________
Pessimists find difficulty in every opportunity. Optimists find opportunity in every difficulty. |
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SL
Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 191
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Mark,
Please do not feel that you need to put any more time in to this thread than you already have.
I believe that in your responses to me you have disclosed your true orientation, in the forum as well as in life.
Your apparent inability to simply read what is said with no assumptions precludes any possibility for a real discussion, as does your apparent disinterest in a balanced understanding of the purpose of Love in our lives.
There is no one thing I personally feel the need to comment upon or discuss with you in terms of what you actually do in your life.
It is yours, do what you wish.
However, in this forum, or in any other venue relating to it, you can rest assured that your own perception that you yourself can speak with authority about the Celestine books or community is misguided.
You do not have the authority, experience or understanding, conceptually or in any other way, to do so.
In that sense, I would like to thank you for sharing as you have, in order that this may be read and understood in this thread.
I wish you well.
Peace,
Steve |
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WolfsEyelash
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
Posts: 166
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:25 am Post subject: |
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hello
just wanted to say thank you for this thread, i have found it very enlightening and educational, also absolutely love the video of the Poet and my favorite is "Shake the dust" very moving, sobering, thought provoking just love it, thank you.
with all my love
sophia
_________________
"Love knows not it's own depth til the hour of separation"
Namaste * |
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MM2
Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 113
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:58 pm Post subject: To End a Dialog Premature. What is the reason. |
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How would you have liked me to reply SL?
I'm open to your thoughts. It seems like you are looking for a certain response.
_________________
Pessimists find difficulty in every opportunity. Optimists find opportunity in every difficulty. |
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Grahame
Joined: 09 Jan 2009
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | How would you have liked me to reply SL? |
Mark, I suspect reading something before you comment on it would be a great starting point for you.
| Quote: | | I'm open to your [Steve's] thoughts. |
Are you really? Can you honestly say that you have approached Steve's posts with openness?
| Quote: | | It seems like you are looking for a certain response. |
Perhaps it is a certain quality of response that SL is looking for? I personally love to see a quality of response - one that includes actually reading, digesting and responding honestly to the previous part of the conversation. When I read Steve's words I tend to pay particular attention to what they are saying about me, and invariably I find that I am facing up to aspects of myself that I have denied, hidden was unaware of or just did not love enough.
Perhaps that is just me...
_________________
"Problems cannot be solved from the same level of consciousness that created them" - Einstien |
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MM2
Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 113
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject: To read or not to Read...how can you tell the difference? |
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Hey Grahame,
Thank you for the direction and comments.
Apart from my first post, I do believe I approached SL's writing with openness. It seems like he wants me to admit something, admit my limitations, my faults, my youngness, my not knowing, my nature of being human, my infallibility, my inflexibility, my inconsiderate nature, my judgementalism, my lack of self-reflection, the lack of empathy for others, close-mindedness, and ultimately acknowledge my tremendous ego and need to be right.
Do you also get that impression?
The issue here seems to be that I concede to some of these things especially my fallibility and limitations but just not in the areas that SL is pointing to. I feel like I have reason to suggest to him that his analysis of me is inaccurate in some places. I mentioned a few of those places in my last post. I particularly disagree with SL on his views of poverty eradication and I feel that it is healthy to bring this up. His view on poverty eradication is quite common and that to me seems to be an issue worth discussing at length.
Could we flip this on its side a little and balance out the conversation. What am I trying to say about SL? (to take the conversation off of the merits of poverty eradication and to place it on me and him which I hope nobody minds (rishi  )).
Mark
_________________
Pessimists find difficulty in every opportunity. Optimists find opportunity in every difficulty. |
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SL
Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 191
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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I think Mark, after your post from September 10, I just felt like there was no reason to continue doing what I had been attempting to do in my previous three posts. You have not yet understood the point to this thread.
The point has been you, and how you interact with this community you feel a part of, an affinity for and yet criticize so vociferously.
When I posted that link, any reaction from you was possible. Everyone else in the forum knew this. No one responded to it, until you did.
How you responded to the original link has been your revelation of yourself as well as your gift to us.
In terms of content that you put into your responses, there really has been nothing that I could engage with. You are a source of assumption in what seems to be a majority of paragraphs you write. I personally find assumptions neither necessary nor desirable in a dialogue between two individuals in these circumstances. Your personal assumptions about any topic have no value in a dialogue with me, if I do not share them. We have no basis for discussion in that situation.
That you and I have no basis for a discussion has been clear for a very long time, when it comes to any potential dialogue we could have about world poverty. However, I had thought that when it came to the forum or the chat room or even the spiritual community at large, we might perhaps have been able to interact. We would need to lay our core beliefs out in this thread to be able to do that.
I feel I have done this, in this thread specifically, repeatedly. In doing so, it was to open a door through which we could interact as peers. I don't care how old you are Mark. I really do not. I will point out your age as it seems appropriate, to illustrate the difference it is making in your perspective. For me, it is the same action as telling a guy on a sidewalk that if he looked up, he might see the piano about to fall on his head. Perhaps, if you and I were in that situation, you would assume I felt superior to guys who are on sidewalks. But in that case, as in the one we are actually sharing, that would not be true.
A dialogue between us is not possible if you do not respond to anything that I say, regarding these matters, in my posts. We have no reference points in common other than past experiences, and those are minimal. For me (I don't know about you), the forum really provides a possibility to get to the heart of certain ideas that hinder clarity between individuals within this community. I cannot see in this thread that there is any sincere interest in you for this.
I would like to point out something from your response to me from September 10. In your second paragraph you state this:
| Quote: | | The first is when you mentioned the Celestine Gathering. I greatly appreciated the invite, as you noted, not because of James celebrity or authority which is one of the easiest ways to stereotype a "youthful mind". I am not a sheeple (sheep people) and do not follow trends solely because of the masterful marketing and charisma of a certain person. I believe these things are extremely important in causing change in our society as a whole since it appears in order to synchronize with the way society is now, the system, marketing and celebrity culture is paramount. In fact, it appears that along with a global government, global economy, and global language, there will be a global culture and it appears like that culture will be the celebrity culture we all are beginning to know all too well. Do I agree with it? Not in its current form, but utilizing this power is paramount if we are going to be intelligent and effective in harnessing the system to change the system. |
Three paragraphs later you state this:
| Quote: | I want to pull out the idea that you might be stereotyping me. I read The Truth Shall Set You Free 10 years ago and have been learning with that mind frame since then. This is why I disagree with your conclusion in your last few paragraphs which I see as a road to progress on the actually discussion of poverty eradication. Right on!
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For reference I will post this quote from the Krishnamurti Foundation of America, located (at least today) at this link:
http://www.kfa.org/who-we-are.php
| Quote: | When you look at this life of action—the growing tree, the bird on the wing, the flowing river, the movement of the clouds, of lightning, of machines, the action of the waves upon the shore—then you see, do you not, that life itself is action, endless action that has no beginning and no end. It is something that is everlastingly in movement, and it is the universe, God, bliss, reality. But we reduce the vast action of life to our own petty little action in life, and ask what we should do, or follow some book, some system.
— Krishnamurti, Bombay 1958 |
| Quote: | | [For those who are not aware of Krishnamurti or his work, I will say that from the moment as a teenager that he broke from Theosophy he always, without exception, explained the reality, and the value, of Experience as an individual process. That to ally one's energies with belief systems, whether religious or political, was to give away one's own individuality, and inevitably results in taking a person out of the 'Now' and the truth found within it.] |
To assert, as you do, that you have been learning with 'that mind frame' expressed in the book 'The Truth Shall Set You Free' by Krishnamurti three paragraphs after stating,
| Quote: | In fact, it appears that along with a global government, global economy, and global language, there will be a global culture and it appears like that culture will be the celebrity culture we all are beginning to know all too well. Do I agree with it? Not in its current form, but utilizing this power is paramount if we are going to be intelligent and effective in harnessing the system to change the system.
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is such a blithe, political 'spin' to suit your argument it not only strains credulity, it removes any credibility you may have had, from my perspective. It is an untruth, as well as a coercion, to say that we have to use the system to change the system, a demonstrable misrepresentation. We can do anything that we want in those regards.
Besides saying such a thing, to imply practically in the same breath that you think like Krishnamurti in those regards, well, it left me flabbergasted. It really left me with the feeling that you should always keep sales in mind as a viable career alternative.
Really Mark, do you actually believe that people are going to pay attention and give credence to someone who twists ideas so out of proportion? Are you really under the impression that you are the only person in this forum to have read Krishnamurti? And are you truly so obtuse that you will say things based on some hazy memory from ten years ago, that you feel no need to verify that what you are saying is true?
Krishnamurti needs no defense from me. I am just a guy. However, I am a guy who is not willing to allow you to BS the people in this forum unimpeded.
You have pontificated and beat your breast in this forum, crying out for a sincere, rational dialogue about really significant issues. You have extolled the virtue and the ideal of logic, clear thinking and good writing skills. Yet you exhibit none of them. You demonstrate the opposite of all of these ideas. And you have avoided a direct dialogue with me, one who has clearly been trying to speak with you.
Your time is yours, no one in this forum makes you write sentences constructed like this:
| Quote: | In mentioning what I also know and have read about celebrity influence on western culture, I would also not be too surprised if you were surprised about my consciously awareness of how James celebrity would affect someone like me in my current position in society relative to his.
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This is not an exhibition of proper writing skills Mark. It is not coherent. It is not grammatically correct. And there are a plethora of sentences just as murky and convoluted as what I just pasted, throughout many of your posts here.
You frequently state how little time you have. No one forces you to hit the enter key on your keyboard. It would be advisable before you do to consider the quote from Abraham Lincoln - "It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."
So, basically Mark, I am done with this thread. If you would decide to post anything that is actually a dialogue based in clarity, rather than a ramble, I am in.
I hope you have a great time in New York, it's always exciting to be there.
Peace
Steve |
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MM2
Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 113
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:33 am Post subject: An Assumption made by the Accusor it seems? |
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Hey SL,
Speaking of assumptions, I thought you were speaking of "The Truth Shall Set You Free" by David Icke not Krishnamurti. I've never directly read Krishnamurti and didn't state anywhere that I was him, of his mindset etc etc.
Please, if I can ask you as well to keep your assumptions in mind. I feel I have directly responded to you. How have I not addressed you directly in what you have said (I haven't addressed you in the entirety of the situation, but in the places I did, I felt I was very direct and explicit)?
Yes, my grammar could be improved.
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I have also read through your posts in their entirety now. I would like to respond to you paragraph by paragraph in your initial post, but I feel like you have not directly addressed much of the content in my last post or in the post where I stated reason why your view on poverty eradication could be false.
Also, if you would re-read the myewb forum now in its updated form, you will see how Boris' argument was addressed and that there was a contradiction in what he said that invalidated his argument for the most part, whether you perceive him as a heavy-weight or not.
The generalizations I make about University Administration appear to be completely true from my experiences with them and they have explained to me their reasoning of why they have to be careful around certain people, not so much on how they appear, but on how they conduct themselves and the content they spread. Any teacher would have their hairs raise up if a student said they would never read another textbook again...which is precisely what Anis said in the first 60 seconds of the video. Maybe he was joking, but administrators and teachers would not be laughing because they understand that younger minds might not realize its a joke either....would you like me to explain this in more detail?
In describing others on the forum as "low awareness individuals" or things of that nature, I don't feel it as directly negative. What if it is the truth? What if there is an integrity and honesty there that is desperately needed in the community right now? Sometimes beating around the bush only makes things worse. This is my perception of the community at this point. I have reason to believe it. I am careful and considerate in expressing it without losing its meaning. I believe I have stated my reasons for believing it. I'm not saying it to demean anyone. Anyone that doesn't agree may wish to ask a question or state that this is not true for certain reasons in a rational dialog. I'm not saying it to condescend anyone, but to point out directly what I think needs to change in the forum and why. I think my comments are being perceived in an overly negative manner. If you look back, many of my posts and comments were met with harsh judgments and criticisms, but were later perceived differently for their true intention, and then sometimes the synchronicity occurred. I am willing to concede that sometimes I go beyond peoples comfort zones and that I should be careful in doing so. More careful now especially with my ability and choice to give less time to the forum than before (yes, my grammar was terrible in a few posts. Sometimes my thoughts don't come out well at 2am after an energetic day.)
Also, you speak of love, heart, and spirituality SL. I think we should hash these things out and figure out our core believes so that we can synchronize them (as you suggested). This is what true love is (in what I have learned so far). This is why, it seems, that higher energy levels result in more synchronicity. Are you interested in going through core beliefs in this manner with me, in a more structured format?
Mark
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Pessimists find difficulty in every opportunity. Optimists find opportunity in every difficulty. |
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SL
Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 191
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Mark,
You know, I really do not know what it was that caused that book title to connect immediately in my mind to Krishnamurti. I looked him up on Amazon after I saw your last post. There are some books of his that have 'truth' in the title, and one or two with 'freedom' but not that specific title. I started reading him when I lived in Germany and there, most of his books are put out by an English publisher. In the states, another company puts his stuff out. He did not 'write' very many of his books. They are, for the most part, transcripts of lectures that he gave. The two different publishing houses tend to juggle around collections of those lectures into different editions for whatever reason.
So, I apologize for not double checking that before I put up the post.
That said, the ironic dynamic to this misstep on my part is that my reaction to finding out you were referring to David Icke is still pretty much the same as if it had been Krishnamurti you meant. I have not read any of Icke's books, but I have been watching his films as well as the many interviews he has done for 10 or 12 years now. (Some more recent interviews can be found at www.consciousmedianetwork.com)
I would be very interested in learning how he specifically gave you the 'mind frame' and conceptual understanding that inspired and led you to write something like this,
| Quote: | In fact, it appears that along with a global government, global economy, and global language, there will be a global culture and it appears like that culture will be the celebrity culture we all are beginning to know all too well. Do I agree with it? Not in its current form, but utilizing this power is paramount if we are going to be intelligent and effective in harnessing the system to change the system.
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If you have in mind a specific quote or argumentation that Mr. Icke used that inspired you to feel that harnessing the system in order to change the system is the most effective means of achieving a paradigm shift, I would like to know about it. His films and interviews paint a completely different picture.
This (believing change comes best from within established systems) is really a key point I think, in determining whether or not you and I can have a viable, constructive dialogue. The reason I feel this way is because it is so diametrically opposed to most of my views about our collective process.
My dictionary widget on my desktop defines 'paradigm' as meaning 'model, pattern, example, exemplar, template, standard, prototype, archetype'. Oddly enough, the sample sentence given along with the definition is, 'Why should your sets of values be the paradigm for the rest of us?' I think this is a valid question for you from 'us', the spiritual community in general as well as the Celestine community here. What exactly has led you to believe that you yourself have the skill, experience and insight to be able to guide everyone else in how we should structure ourselves in order to raise our vibration levels? Why exactly is it that you think we should all be working as you are within an old paradigm to bring about a new paradigm? Why does it not seem possible to you that a new paradigm may indeed come into existence on Earth if we would all simply quit putting all of our energy into the old?
Are you aware that the American Revolutionary War and the Declaration of Independence were supported by only 10% of the population of those original thirteen colonies? Doesn't that give one pause when considering the idea of 'critical mass'?
The following sentence (which in my view is sub-optimally expressed and therefore unclear) from your post of September 10th indicates that you feel it is possible that spirituality, whether through ideas presented by the Celestine books or some other, may offer new paradigms for our collective society:
| Quote: | | Sure there may be people and families in the backdrop of the worlds most powerful societies but they too operate by certain awareness levels and if a critical mass in society occurs and the medium awareness level reaches a certain threshold, then we can break into the Celestine Vision way of things or other spiritual paradigms of that nature as we suddenly "catch up" to them and become aware of the system we are in to the same degree. |
But if you feel this way, then why would you first wish to immerse yourself into the old paradigm? Do you truly believe, in spite of known historical trends to the contrary, that the impoverished are going to 'catch up' to Bill Gates? Or even my parents for that matter....
There are so many examples in ancient history, as well as middle age history and contemporary history of how power corrupts, how systems beat down individuality. I am curious how you can be so sold on the idea that you can restructure our world with the same thinking that created the problems we now have. Einstein's famous quote on this methodology does not seem to have made an impression on you. How do you respond to that?
I really do not know a subtle way to say this to you Mark, so I will just say it: You speak on these matters like a politician, a reformist politician of the type that all people in any society that holds elections anywhere knows very well. In the United States we now have a man serving as president who did a very good job of convincing people that things were going to change if we elected him.
I must say, he is in my mind a far better speaker than Bill Clinton, which says a lot. Obama is very inspiring. But even before he was elected, he gave his support as a senator in October last year for the $780 or so billion dollar bailout of Wall Street. That money, which was newly manufactured debt now owed by the American people, went directly to the firms that actually created the crisis in the first place.
Now think about that, nearly $800 billion dollars... It was said at the time that that much money would spread out among the citizens of the USA to the tune of over $400,000 dollars for every adult citizen over the age of 18. Personally, I do not think that the American economy would be in the shape it is now in if every adult citizen over the age of 18 had had for the last 10 or 11 months $400,000 dollars on hand with which to improve the lives of their families, with which to pursue their most desired activities and forms of industriousness.
We here in the states believe, or are told, that our government is of the people, by the people and for the people. But the people's own representatives, who are supposed to be 'just like us' and working for 'us', gave that money instead to a very small group of people, with virtually no restrictions.
Our Congress here is full of men and women who were voted into office on the idea that they were 'outside' the political culture to be found in Washington, and yet these are the people who bent the knee to the unelected officials who told them it was in the interest of our own security to support this 'emergency measure'. This was the same reasoning that caused those same men and women to financially support the current war, the last war before this one and even the one before that etc etc...
You have said to me that reasonable people can find room and ways to find agreement and common cause. I do not disagree with you on a local or personal scale Mark. But I gotta tell ya, I would prefer my representatives to be more unreasonable when these corporations come calling at my government's treasury office. I would prefer to have politicians in office in our 'free' society that would throw these individuals out the front door when they come to describe a disaster that is only disastrous for their own corporations.
The following are the first three sentences of the second paragraph of the American constitution(SORRY - the Declaration of Independence, edited 09/22 5:57)
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
I would prefer that all governments in the world were unreasonable in their resolve to uphold values such as these. But this is not the case. Bhutan is the only country in the world where it sounds to me like the government does indeed fulfill that function.
It was 'reasonable' men who decided to drop two atomic bombs on their fellow man 54 years ago. Hundreds of thousands of people died in an instant. Hundreds of thousands more died slow, painful, agonizing deaths over the days and weeks and months that followed. Thousands more led the remaining decades of their lives in a perpetual state of torture.
When I consider the political machinations that Franklin D. Roosevelt supervised leading up to the Second World War that have come to light in recent years, I believe that his legacy, regardless of how the media portrays him, is not one of a man who was resolute in his desire to reform, but rather a man who let down his nation in his desire to conform.
You may, as a Canadian, be uninterested in American politics, and I myself am not so versed in Canadian political history as to be able to name similar examples in your own political history. But the theme of what I am saying should speak to you as a co-heir of that first wrenching of the yoke off of the collective necks of our forebears, the Magna Carta, forced upon King John in 1215 by his own people in order to establish at least the rudiments of common law so that they were not subject to the whims of a despot, or a group of oligarchs.
So, I point out these things to you to say that if we (or you) fail to be mindful of the lessons of the past, then we (or you) are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. Maybe you are the exception to a panoply of historical figures and are able to go into our current world system of celebrity culture and catalyze and change our culture into something here-to-fore unknown to man. I suggest to you that this may be an illusion. I could be wrong.
In my post from August 24, I used several hundred words describing the dynamic of Love, Energy and Oneness in the context of this community and your interaction within it. I described how we can rise out of the paradox of dualism civilization has been stymied by - through the recognition of our own individual and collective Self in all we come in contact with, both the good and the bad. And in that recognition, how we can all see and acknowledge our individual as well as collective responsibility for the state of the world as it is today.
In a fairly consistent and open way, my feelings and statements on these matters were claimed as my own. What I have presented to you, personally and repetitively, were the contradictions I perceive in what you say you are inspired by versus what you feel should be done to 'correct' what is 'wrong', in your view.
I thought, before we started this dialogue, that you were someone who enjoyed these types of conversations, saw them as vital for deeper understanding and perspective, as I do. And yet, for I believe the third time, you are writing to me about the worries of university administrators.
Mark, why would you think I care?
You have gone back to that one phrase in one poem by one guy in one video on youtube of all places to explain repeatedly your reasoning in being concerned about any connection some anonymous (to me) administrators might possibly make to you. If they are that busy with the youtube tastes of everyone who is associated with your university, then perhaps going to a small liberal arts college would be a nice change of pace for you.
Regarding your characterizations of members here as 'low-level' and your logic in using that verbiage and similar ones:
I do not believe you understand the compensatory nature of the Universe, nor the basics of what synchronicity is. I cannot recall now where in this thread I saw you say that synchronicity can be created but I am fairly sure it was not the only time in your writings I have seen you say as much. Synchronicity is. It is a flow that is constant throughout the universe. It is not steady, it is a wave. What James Redfield said about it in his books in no way gives any reason to believe that if you wake up 'enough' you can start to 'make' synchronicity. It is through our uninhibited and unfettered perception and vigilance that we are able to perceive synchronicity. Synchronicity does not make an appearance because we have become better people. It 'appears' because we have become aware of the flow, and learned how to detach from programming instilled by our society and families in order to see the synchronicities.
| Quote: | I think we should hash these things out and figure out our core believes so that we can synchronize them.
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In this sense Mark, I know my core beliefs. I believe I have clearly stated them. I have been willing to engage with you because it seemed clear you desired a reflection from me and I wanted to honor that for you. I also felt that for me, after reading all of your posts, it was not, and is still not clear what your core beliefs are. I do not feel like I know any more about your perceptions than I did before this began.
I cannot repeat any more, without boring even myself let alone our fellow forum members, what I have expounded upon in such volume in this thread.
To be clear, it will not hurt my feelings if you decide not to pursue any more discussion in this thread. However, for your information, if you do feel motivated to respond to this post, no question I asked in this writing was rhetorical. I am sincerely interested in your response to all questions I posed in this post. At this point, anything else I could talk about would seem redundant. If I have made any conceptual illustration that is unfamiliar to you, I will of course do my best to elucidate for you.
Other than that, for me, the issues we have highlighted in this thread for all who may read it, are all related to integrity, clarity and how the divergence from a perception of Oneness creates confusion when it comes to clarity and integrity, in my humble opinion...
I wish you well Mark.
Peace
Steve |
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