Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

[sushil_yadav]

[truth]

Hi Sushil,

I think I finally get where you are coming from - you see human rationality as a loaded pistol rather than a gift... one that will bring about our final destruction. The question this has to pose is: what would have happened had we not been given that loaded pistol?

My perspective of life is different, because I have been able to use that rationality to identify, recognise and live both the spiritual and love-based aspects of life with truly amazing results... to me, rationality has most definitely been a gift.

I guess the difference between the two of us seems a mighty gulf. However, it appears that we have been brought together to bridge that gulf.

To me, humanity had no choice but to enter the rational stage of life, because the spiritual, as it was then interpreted by humans, wasn't making sense from a whole life perspective - we had a sense of individuality and a need to bring it to life. Again, that rationality didn't in itself make sense from a whole life perspective, and the gaps it created, which you identified to some extent in the experiments you originally referred to, brought about the dawn of the New Age love and peace movements. However, yet again, this in itself did not make sense from a whole life perspective.

Having dipped my toe into Spiral Dynamics, I believe that what we are endeavouring to do now - our task in this era in which we find ourselves - is to bring together all three elements: the spiritual, the rational and the love, to hopefully provide that whole life view that will make sense to all (unless there are other, as yet to be identified, human values - thinking about it, there must be). Do I know that for sure? No, of course not. But I can't see the point in not giving life a go on that basis - not giving this gift of life I've been given a good go does not make any sense to me whatsoever.

How's that gulf now?

Pat

[Shamana]

I thought this is a good place to re-post this message. I'm doing this because I see that the questions asked were never answered and I, for one, would truly like to know what answers would be given. There are MANY important and significant facts that are pointed out here...Facts are facts, so what are we going to do about them? Ignore them with cute little platitudes or care enough to actually take a stand and do something to help change the course of destruction that is taking place?

Here is the post......


Thank you for your direct responses. I’d really like to continue the detailed dialog if for no other reason that my own clarification on this subject. You see, unlike almost everyone else, I find this whole consumer thinking to be quite mysterious. Absolutely none of it makes sense to me. So maybe you can help me out here, and shed some light on the subject.

The first mystery that comes to mind here is what you mentioned, Truth, about the so-called “comfort” that is supposedly a benefit of belonging to consumerism. As you pointed out, the official line is that all these “things” we are encouraged to own adds to “our comfort level”. I guess this is supposed to mean that working a 9-5, five days a week, 28+ weeks a year for 20-30 years, is made “worthwhile” by having a fancy couch to sit on instead of a thrift store chair.

As I understand it, almost everybody is a credit card slave whose only release from debt is often death itself, and whose interest payments are ever spiraling upward, and yet, all this is “worth it” in order to ‘buy all those things we so desperately can’t live without’, (or at least this is what the Oracular and Holy Television says, so it must be true). And I guess this is supposed to mean that getting hypertension, indigestion, overweight, and chronic depression at the corporate workplace, is all made “wonderful” by, “a life of luxury” where you’ve got $5000 curtains, socially correct hand-painted oil-on-canvas art on your walls and fashionable clothing in the closets?

And supposedly, when we “pursue our careers” in order to “achieve our financial goals” which means nothing more than living to work, (for money is God almighty) is made worthwhile, because when we get Alzheimer’s at the nearest rest home, we’ll have all the cash we need for a room with a window. And I conjecture that a totally stressed life lived unhappily, (50% of couples now divorce at least once) is made “well lived” by owning an oh-so-admirable mansion on the hill, because, as everybody knows, there’s nothing more important in life than “impressing” other people?

And it must be excellent indeed to live so out of balance with nature that our livers are rotting away, and our blood made toxic in the eating of ‘convenient foods’ (because, “who has the time to eat right or work out”) in exchange for a politically correct lifestyle, made palatable by the ability to waste $30-$100-a-plate luncheons and dinners at the local “posh” restaurant. And I must further conclude that killing yourself earning those 6-7 digit figures every year, resulting in astronomical rates of cancer (chemotherapy) and mental illness, (“mood stabilizing” drugs) is the very essence of success, because although you may be diseased and suicidal, you’ve got a nice new car everybody can “admire” as you drive down the street?

And furthermore, never mind 3-7 species going extinct an hour, or the toxicity of our produce, (cancer from herbicides and pesticides) the air we breathe, (asthma) or the polluted streams, lakes, rivers we drink from, (chlorine, fluoride, estrogen from animal husbandry, PCBs’, industrial bi-products, mercury, prescription medication ingredients and literally hundreds of other unnatural chemicals) because somebody, somewhere, is “making a handsome profit” from all this, and everybody knows it’s our patriotic duty to, “stimulate the economy”. And never mind that most wars are really, behind the scenes, fought over resources and corporate contracts, (money once again) killing millions and destroying whole regions of the earth, because what’s important is, “maintaining our way of life” that is supposedly the envy of the rest of the world. And never mind that whole regions of rainforest are being stripped bare, and that we have huge “dead zones” along the coasts of our oceans, and that we’re changing the climate of the earth so much that polar ice is melting, all this is “just wonderful” because all that matters is human possessions, human feelings and human “economies”.

Is THIS what you’re talking about, Truth, when you refer to the “comfort level” of modern consumer society? Now to me, such a life doesn’t sound very comfortable, but then, everybody here knows that I just like to be “negative”, so maybe you can explain to me how this really works? Explain to me the facts of modern life, if you will, which I obviously don’t well understand, and then I can finally come to grips with this consumerism issue. Tell me how all the ills and injustices of consumer society are made worthwhile by these ‘comforts” we supposedly have, so that I can put my conscience to rest.

[truth]

Hi Shamana,

Have you come across Maslow's hierarchy of needs? Only when self actualisation is realised do we raise our heads above the parapet and start to question ourselves about our impact on the World and how best we can go about achieving that.

Think about it - if you were a banker living in your mansion, surrounded by security, educated to believe that your way was the only way to live - what chance would there be of you realising self-actualisation? The same as everyone else - if you aren't willing to take that step, why should you expect others to do so?

We've covered this off many times - it isn't what 'they' do that is important in our own life, rather what we do with our life. If we don't strive to seek self-actualisation how on earth can we expect others to do the same? BTW I understand one fact of human nature is that 80% of people will follow other's lead - until those who can illustrate another way of living that is to the betterment of all, that 80% will continue on the path that suits best. We, who are striving to do so, have to lead by example, forcing our values on others does nothing towards those others achieving their own self-actualisation.

No doubt you'll say again that I've ignored the facts - although the facts you have highlighted are real, they are only the symptom of societal and humanitarian ills and, therefore, provide only one part of life's picture, we will not resolve those ills by removing the symptoms only.

No matter how clever we think we might be, life itself cannot be rationalised, we have to seek out our own answers from within and that requires us to be absolutely honest with who we are and what we do to bring to life the changes we want to see in the world.

I know that you are doing all you can, hone in on all the positive stuff you are doing and build on that.

Pat

[Grahame]

Yeah man,

Be the change that you wish to see in the world
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"Problems cannot be solved from the same level of consciousness that created them" - Einstien

[sushil_yadav]

[ceinvests]

Have you seen communities of educated humans who are doing it right; on a good track, moving in that direction?
Any groups that have formed with some answers on how to live a modernized lifestyle while taking care in a way that 'moves us forwardly backward?'

Do you see any groups, organizations or communities who are making steps in the right direction?

Could you share any of this so that we can look in that/their direction?

Thank you.
_________________
Searching Searcher

[sushil_yadav]

[truth]

Hi Sushil,

I'm interested to know whether your strategy of declaring 'The end is nigh' has progressed life in any way since you first declared it as such three and a half years ago.

To me this is a strategy of hedging your bets: it looks as though we've mucked up big time so let's declare it as such and then if it does go horribly wrong we can take great comfort knowing that we were right all along.

Personally, I feel that this strategy stinks on two levels, firstly we are not taking full advantage of the obvious passion behind the message and secondly you are reinforcing for those who believe they can't do anything about it that they are right - they can't do anything about it.

Sushil, you have the passion, find a can-do attitude and your message will become one of not knowing for sure that you are doing the right thing, but somehow you will get the feeling that you are doing something towards making it right... and you know what? You'll get to realise that the whole universe is on your side... it's got to be worth a try, hasn't it?

Pat

[Duane]

Hello all. Wow this has been a long and winding thread.

This is my first post for quite some time on this forum and this thread was one I has posted in..back on the first page...Reciting a bit of Indian wisdom regarding "talk".


We have beautiful people all around us.
It is your choice to see that, it is easy.
Everywhere I go, there I am.
Every minute, every one.

*flower*

[sushil_yadav]

[sister goshe]

Spock vs James Kirk

We need emotion, yes - Spock needs his glimpses of emotion.

We need quick thinking, James Kirk often doesn't hesitate...

Slow thinking and you miss the window of opportunity.

Quick thinking isn't neccessarily emotionless.

Often one can prepare and set a emotional tone for the day, and then be able to quickly navigate the day.

As long as we are on the path, we feel right... led by a higher source.

Perhaps it is just a matter of repetition - our thought move quicker through ideas we've seen before.

Perhaps those without conscience just ... well, just lack it. They just don't care. They may have a different ethical philosophy that you and I.

Spock and Kirk make a great team.

They compliment each other.

They need each other.
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Sister G0$he

[truth]

Sister Goshe,

I enjoyed the analogy, beautifully delivered thank you. However, I would like to point out something to which I have only recently become aware... the white, middle-class male attitude that forms our institutions. In effect if our institutions (family through to organisations and bureaucracies) were human, they would, on the whole, be white, middle-class men driven by white, middle-class male attitudes.

Yes, Spock and James T do compliment each other and, yes, they do need each other, but the fact that they are in constant battles across the universe creates pause for reflection... what influence, if any, did women feature in their decision making? If we (humans) could learn how to operate on the basis of gender neutrality, then perhaps the Universe would find the peace it seeks.

As to industrial organisations, Sushil, even though you are not personally to blame, until you learn to love before you act in every aspect of your life, including threads such as these, you will continue to perpetuate the heartbreak exclusivity creates, just in a different form...

Guys, we need you to want to learn how to love us first and lasses, we need to want to learn how to stop compensating for them when they do not do so.

Pat

[sister goshe]

Pat,

Perhaps the truth doesn't lie in gender neutrality, but in acknowledging that men and women are different - built differently, with different strengths and weeknesses designed to compliment each other.

Women nurturers and Male providers. Unfortunatley so many males aren't stepping up, so women are taking care of themselves.

Women can't stop compensating for men's failures - we and our children wouldn't survive. My son would have been living in a cardboard bo with his father and I if I hadn't stepped in.

It's much more wonderful when men play the manly role they were designed for. Then I could get back to doing what I/we women do best: Nuturing.

Lovingly,
Goshe
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Sister G0$he

[truth]

Hi Sister,

I'm a little at a loss as to how to respond to your post. The only clue I could find to this sense of loss is that your last post was formed of your own personal preferences rather than that of the earlier, more universal discussion.

I guess I'm left with the question - did you introduce your personal preferences because you want to expand your view, that is, open them up to be questioned, or because you believe them to be true and, therefore, should never be questioned?

BTW thank you for the post - the 'sense of loss' enabled me to focus my attention on what I really want to achieve in life.

Pat
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