Unifying faith, do we really want that?

[KK]

Dear James,



In ?The secret of Shambhala?, you speak about unifying faith/religions. Despite of living in an environment that could arguably be called the most extreme mixture of race and culture in the smallest possible space, where different religions are not looked down upon, I still have my reservations about that. Could you give us a hint if you going to clarify that further in the next book?



By definition ?faith? is the belief in something that can?t be rationally proven or experienced. Where as the ideas in the books are very much real. So, faith has hardly anything to do with it.



Would be great to get some feedback from anyone out there as to how are we going to do that? Any opinions? Constructive disagreement is always welcome but please no name-calling!



Blessed be the life we live in

Kurt

[silverwing]

By the power of thought!! Thats how,

In most cases many groups of people of certain beliefs tried to unify all faiths not by joining the faiths together, but by trying to destroy the other faiths! at least thats what we learn in history at school! but i think what you have to remember is that we dont actually want to get rid of the other faiths, we dont want to go out and do a mass conversion of people into this new path of life, that just wont work! people will find the path they are best suited to through their on intuitions!

Remember that what we want to do is bring people into a way of trusting their intuitions! by thinking positively and infact following the exercises mentioned in one of the books about visualising a person remembering what they came here to do, then we can in fact spread this. People wont try and fight it because they would be fighting there very central soul!! yeah we can argue within our minds, but if we have something so deep within us then we cannot ignore it or go against it because that is in fact who we are!



Dont think of it as a take over persay, just more of a remembering!!

Does this help?

[KK]

Dear Silverwing,



It?s not that simple,



a.) People never seem to learn from history.

b.) People are not willing to change things they sincerely belief to be right.

c.) Mass conversation is already underway. (I am a convert, simply because it works)



You are of course right with your analysis of history, but your ??.

[Thales]

"we concentrate on the small differences in our ideologies instead on the massive number of things that we all have in common." I would have thought this quote would highlight the need to unify all common theological ideologies.

We need to reach a common understanding before we can progress past most basic fears. We fear what we don't know. So learning is soooooo important.



When we stop fearing each other (we first need to try to understand everybody else) we can then reach the stage of communicating at a some fundamental-base level of energy transfer rather than deconstructing thoughts into a common language, using complex vocal distortions of soundwaves to transfer this language and then to be recieved, interpreted and constructed back into one holostic thought.



----------It already started long ago with basic looks (ever seen something funny happen, as you laugh/smile you catch a glimpse of someone else with the same expression and just by the look, timing, etc you know exactly what they are thinking about. --------------

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I think we need a move away from from religion/faith acting as something to fill an emotional void created by our higher cognitive and metacognitive brains. When we first became self-aware as Redfield talks about in The Tenth Insight

"as we awakened to pursue a higher destiny we also lost the calm peace of unconsciousness. Along with the exhilaration and freedom of knowing we were alive came the fear and uncertainty of being alive without knowing why." As soon as we had enough of a vocabulary to express our thoughts, we needed to descibe, explain and communicate those thoughts to others. But, to do this we need to deconstruct that thought into parts that we can explain using common language. Over time this has led us to a very disconnected society with an extremely fractured worldview.



many people overcome this fear through either by gaining control of their physical bodies (fakirs - crawl across country), minds (yogis - menatlly overcome challanges), emotions (religious followers - use 'faith' to feel secure about the ills they receive).



I think people must believe in their own judgments, choices, etc. We must learn to have faith in ourselves, our own potentials and the fact that the universe will sort it out, so there ain't no need to worry.



If I die and there is a heaven, then super, if theres nothing then I won't be conscious to know about it. I don't believe an all-loving omnipotent (ALL-powerful) being could allow a 'hell' to exist.



p.s. If God is omnipotent and created everything, why would she allow 'evil' to exist? Or is it that we invented the concepts of evil and God.

[silverwing]

Hi again Kurt and Thales

Ya know this kinda reminds me of a section of the tenth insight!



There is a point in that book when john the main character meets up with a reporter!

Now the reporter talks about how the world isnt supposed to be where it is and how there is human fear around! I always read that bit and think 'but why do you not send out positive thoughts and look at the positive side rather then the negative side' he hasnt altered his oppinion yet over my many readings of that section lolios!



The reason i say that this reminds me of that is because it is the same situation! well similar!



It is fine to point out what wont work! but after a while you will expect nothing to work! After a while you wont be able to see where something could work because you 'know' from experience of everything else not working, that this will not work! but you never experienced everything else not orking! you just expected them not to!



I think that this forum has to be the absolute showing of how the dramas represented in the book as the way of humans, are actually the true thinking of people!



I have read many a post where these energy struggles if you like are taking place!



Read the posts from a back seat and you will see it!!



i have managed to through a thousand and one things in the way of my idea! but you know what i have simply kicked them asside because i know my idea will work! i know that people will do it because it is only one day! I know people will see miracles happen because on that day those who truly believe will not feel repressed and that will take us past that critical mass! There are so so so many people out there who are so spiritual etc but they cant do anything because of the energies around them! but if we organise this day then we can help everyone to pull together and we can let the miracles happen! we can experience the full power of the now.



Look at what this can do, not to the worst case senario! it is like guilty untill proven innocent! try thinking about the best case senario rather then the worst!

Set your prayer field towards this working and towards it changing the world!



it isnt a conversion! that is to do with faith and religion! this is life! its the way humans treat each other and the way humans treat nature!



much love

[Guest]

[silverwing]

Wow there is alot of power in that post, in the manner it comes accrosd that is!!



I must agree with your thinkings of faith though!
_________________
Look to the light in every situation! Things seem so much brighter that way!

[KK]

Thanks for all your ideas, nice going.



Will need a few days, to really ponder everything that has been said, and will answer when ready.



Blessed be the live we live in,

Kurt

[Thales]

I wasn't saying that yogis or fakirs or atheists for that matter, lack faith.

Everybody has faith in some form or another.



You can easily have faith in something that isn't true.

- The guy on acid has 'faith' that if he jumps from a building, he can fly.

- When I had 'faith' the Australian public would be smart/wise enough to not re-elect John Howard (who for you who don't know is our Prime-Minister and has done more damage in his 10 years in office than any other politician in the country), there are millions of other examples.



You say you have 'faith' that the sun will rise in the morning and the floor will be under your bed. You didn't have faith in it, then found it to be true. Vice versa. You have known these things ever since childhood.



I'm sorry that my comment on the 'universe' sorting it out, was misleading.

I meant that if Jesus or Buddha gave up before 'changing the world', people, life and everything would be drastically different on the surface to us. But, fundamentally, things would go on.

Your comment on 'opposition' is a key concept of DIALECTICS. The three basic laws of nature/existence. This is why the universe will always remain in equilibrium. We, can't through our actions or inactions, put it out of balance.

The laws of thermodynamics discuss how the internal energy of an object is increased by the amount of work done on it and by the amount of heat added to it, or, 'conservation of energy'. You can't destroy energy, just change it's state.

Also it notes that heat will always be drawn from a hot object into a cool one, if placed next to one another. So as you can see, the universe most certainly will, sort it out.



I wasn't saying that the universe will act in your favour, for any reason or another, just if you can grasp the fundamental concepts of (in this order) mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, physiology, psychology, sociology, then you have the ground work to start creating philosophies about the patterns that life, the universe and everything 'in' it.



Once you recognise these patterns you can 'sit back' and go with the flow. You can make educated decisions, (basing choices on scientific evidence, coupled with how that science integrates into your worldview), that mean you don?t waste energy on things you?d prefer not to, or, be able to avoid situations you prefer not to be a part of.



Why do people see doctors? Is it because they have an understanding grounded in scientific disciplines and plenty of experience on the ?patterns? of illnesses/injuries, that allow them to make far better judgment calls.

More so, that if you understand the universe and work with it, not against it, you can do more, be happier, etc. (e.g. the difference in difficulty between swimming upstream and downstream, is one of the four fundamental laws of Physics, Gravity) So learn about the other three (strong and weak nuclear forces and electromagnetism) and you?ll be on your way to understanding how elements are comprised and act. This will set you up for how elements come together to form more complex chemicals. Complex chemicals to amino acids, amino acids to cells, cells to tissues, tissues to basic physiology, etc, etc, etc, etc. until you come all the way to philosophy, which coming full circle, brings you to theoretical physics (string theory).



Also I defiantly have ?faith? that the universe ?thinks?. I don?t see how if I?m a part of this universe (the most complex and evolved thing I know of in it), and I think, that the substructure that brought me into existence, doesn?t also ?think.?



I know that 'good' only exists in opposition to bad. That things will never be as sweet unless you've tasted bitter. Refer to Frederick Engels three laws of Dialectics.



Please, be my guest, pursue the 'answers' to the afterlife, as much as you want, just remember to live life aswell. I haven't chosen ignorance, I spent years 'searching' for 'the answer' in every science, religion, theology, opinion, viewpoint, book, movie, etc, etc, and after all that I decided that my belief now, what I have 'faith' in, is the only universal truth I am aware of, that of Unity.



I don't believe that the concept of 'seperation' exists. In Quantum physics energy can be thought of as 'Quanta' (particles) or as a wave of energy.

I disbelieve that mind/body are seperate, science/religion or heaven and hell. I don't beleive in an 'afterlife' as such.



I simply live my life to my fullest potential and help others whenever I can because this makes me happy in life. So, if there is some form of 'judgement' then I am satisfied I have done what I can to improve/enrich the world that enriched me with life, and, if theres absolutley nothing, then , as I said, I won't be conscious enough to know.



I am glad you agree with some of what I said, and thankyou for the encouragement, but I don't require any. I find the eternal search through infinite mysteries will always please me, at least mentally.

[Thales]

----sorry about the mispelling - defiantly. It was meant to be DEFINATELY.

I have no idea why I would be defiant about my faith that the universe thinks, as no-one has ever tried oppressing me about it.



-----also there should have been a full stop instead of a comma after 'think' and before 'that'.



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Also, an addition to what I just wrote;-



"My description of faith - 'as something to fill an emotional void created by our higher cognitive and metacognitive brains' - was relating specifically to the kind that people experiance when they are younger.



I think, that many people go to church today because it does to them today emotionally what it did when they were young. Many people, of similar views, getting together in a building (churches are designed as narrow and tall, with light coming from high above through multi-coloured windows, to make the occupants Feel small) and rejoicing in something.

[I get the same feeling when I get together with friends of simliar opinions/music tastes/etc for similar reasons.]



Many people used to go to church because they worked on a farm without too much social interaction, so church each week was more of a social gathering for them rather than purely a testement to god.





P.S coloured is how we spell it in Australia

[KK]

Dear All,



First things first

I agree with your definition ?FAITH IS the evidence of things hoped for the substance of truths unseen?, because it conveys to me exactly the same than what I said, except that you use other words.



Although your interpretation is where I differ. ?You cannot have faith in something if it is not true? is in particular a point where I have to object.



This afternoon, I will go climbing on some nearby cliffs! Now, I have faith that I will return safely, but I know that will get a sunburn.



See the difference? I will do my best in order to return unharmed but have no guarantee that this will be so, where as, even if I try to avoid the sunburn, I know that this is nearly impossible as I also know that the cliff is facing west and hence will be bathed in sunshine the whole afternoon.



I also beg to differ on your notion ?I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I have faith that when I wake up in the morning the floor will be under my bed?.



We know the sun will rise tomorrow! But we have faith that as an individual, we will see that event tomorrow. Again there is no guarantee that ensures that we, as an individual person will actually be there to turn the faith, again into knowledge as you defined it.



Silverwing; these energy struggles have to take place in order to facilitate an eventual conclusion! Those struggles should not be seen as something negative, trough them we can learn and move on. But we would not judge the outcome, if we would truly accept that whatever the result of it, IS in the best interest for the individual involved. Not by our standard, but by theirs!



Looking trough the postings, I as well as many others, have come to embrace the truth embedded in the CP series, because it gave us a way of explaining things that happened to us sometime in the past. And I would even claim that for most of us here today, our ?bad? experiences define who we are right now. CP speaks to me, not because it gives the idea of self-control and a way of counteracting something negative. It speaks to me because after nearly twenty years of looking for a tomorrow, it gave me a real reason to look forward to the challenges of tomorrow, with joy and interest. If CP would have not come along, written in simple and a clear language, I would still be struggling, with the knowledge that 31 years ago, I should have left this world without achieving anything other than despair for my parents.



Strange dough, with all the things that happen to us over a lifetime, for me at least, when I seem to be at the last straw and everything seems lost, salvation is just around the corner. No matter how hard I tried to avoid those situations something negative has nearly always preceded a wonderful outcome (and that is something that I can not define as either knowledge nor faith).



So, you see Silverwing, negative taught in practice leads often (not always) to something wonderful because if we see them in the correct context we will be able to learn from it and at least to some extend counteract it.



Enough for today, I have faith that I shall respond to the rest tomorrow.



Oh, yes, sign me up for your letter,

Would be nice dough if we could have James dough on it.



Blessed be the life we live in,

Kurt



P.s.: Thales, spelling and punctuation is important to convey meaning, but regardless to spelling mistakes or not, we are just happy for you and anyone else to partake.

[silverwing]

Hehe indeediums!! of course these energy struggles have to happen! dont they, i mean what if they just didnt! what if when you noticed what was happening you just took a step back!



Energy struggles are not healthy! it is a sign that your connection with the 'source' isnt fully functioning! we have energy struggles because we want energy! thats why we argue! if e all connected up to the bright light energy then we would be fne!



You do not need energy struggles if you are intuiting things! if you are in a drama then you will have energy struggles, because you are not connected to your higher selves! if you were there wouldnt be any drama!



as for the term faith, well that is subjective to what a person thinks of it and the context it is used in. So long as we know using our minds rather then eyes and ears what a person means! ie picking up on the thoughts of a person then words merely serve as an energy portal to that specific feeling, communication, thought!



much love

kev

xxxxxxxx
_________________
Look to the light in every situation! Things seem so much brighter that way!

[sister goshe]

[sister goshe]

Friends, I hate to break the bubble, but the unification of all theologies isn't going to happen. If a Christian knows that Christ is THE Savior, the SON of GOD, he will never accept the Eastern philosophy that states that Christ was just another adept just like all the others. Many eastern philosophers say they accept Christ, but worship Buddha or all those many Hindu Gods. A Jew is Jewish because he does not believe the Savior has come. A Jew by definision can never be a Christian.



In the mean time the less defined concepts of Love and Peace can and will bring people together. I think James Redfield is very very careful not to cross the line into any belief that may be considered specific to any religion.



I believe that there will be a moment in which the truth will become apparent to all and then those who have not yet chosen the truth will have, with undeniable proof in front of them, the opportunity to reject or accept it.



Can you have faith that there is a religion out there that believes the same things that you do? Can you believe that there is a Church that has the whole truth? How will you know? Is your unified theory in rejecting religions because they are separate closed-minded to the possibility that one may just be wholly true? Albeit perhaps the people are not perfect, people make mistakes, but if God wanted His Church on the Earth don't you think he could do it? Why do you think he hasn't? You have read many books. There's one book I would like to know if you have read. No it's not the Bible- I assume you've read the Bible.



Have you considered the possibility that others have reasoned the truth out like you have? I understand enough about the science of theology from nuclear physics to philosophy. I love this stuff! Consider this- we measure light by our relationship to our Sun. There is an undescribable part of that measurement, part of the curve that leaves room for a light beyond anything that we've ever known. Is it possible that this mystery is proof of the Creator of our universe?
_________________
Sister G0$he

[Reverend Loush]

well since i have been gone there are sooooooooo many interesting discussions that have poped up........this topic is very important i think........i would like to make a comment on the last post by a sister goshe i think it was.........dear sister........you said a jew by definition can never be a christian and that isn't true........i know many christian jews.............they are called messianic jews......being jewish is also a culture not just a religion........i know many people who are jewish by birth and blood, they speak hebrew, they go to a christian synogog, they just believe that the messiah already came and it was Christ! i just wanted you to know that because none of my messianic jewish friends are here to speak for themselves! now on the topic............i think it is important for all to understand......we don't all have to be the same or think the same to live in peace and harmony with eachother.......i am a christian and always will be, but i think that as humans we spend so much time fighting over our differences and the details, when we should just be celebrating what is the same in all of us, and focusing on living in what we all know to be a correct manner! i don't expect anyone to agree with me in this life, but what i do think can happen is that we can all find common ground and in finding that common ground that is where we can unify all of our faiths..............i mean isn't that what we are doing here right now? are we not exlporing ourselves, and eachother, God, and the mystery of life so that we can awaken to a higher way of living and being?

blessed be!

L
_________________
Rev. Loush O'Raven

Blessed be most excellent!