Control Dramas Challenge 1

[MM2]

Hmm,

I've received permission form the participants in this discussion to post this discussion. This is an experimental post to try and connect the Forum to the Chatroom groups and to encourage a flow that aligns more closely with the Celestine Vision.
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Can you spot where and who might be playing a control drama in the following conversation and give good reason why you think so?



6:36 PM [SL] because we are inside we are encased in patterns, as conscious people we become aware of these patterns
6:37 PM [SL] the questions i know i, and i think vongruzzly, deal with lately have to do with recognizing that one must accept what is, and how does one's inner sense of what 'should be' guide one into engaging with this life we all share
6:38 PM [MM2] I guess it would be great if I could help you people become aware that we have the means to end etreme poverty in this generation
6:38 PM [SL]  
6:38 PM [SL] this awareness we have
6:38 PM [Vongruzzly]  
6:39 PM [SL] we are just not in synch with how you choose to engage
6:39 PM [MM2] or, people aren't knowledgable of those ways
6:40 PM [SL]   once again i point out your assumpions of 'us' the 'you people' you refer to as well as your own lack of acceptance of the whole
6:40 PM [MM2] rather, they are in chatrooms like this or others talking about their inner states (important! but at some point.....well....you might have touched on it Von earlier...) or people are in the malls or thinking about what to buy or what will make them better than their neighbor and such
6:40 PM [MM2] which is okay, but the thoughts and thoughtfulness isn't there...........
6:41 PM [Vongruzzly] perhaps not, or perhaps they are so tortured internally that they are incapable of making helathful decsions
6:41 PM [MM2] hmm, I would think it more fair to maybe put in a few "seems like you are" or "you probably are" or something that doesn't put me in such a strong box SL
6:41 PM [Vongruzzly] these are the people who I feel need more compassion
6:41 PM [MM2] I agree Von
6:41 PM [SL] [MM2] I guess it would be great if I could help you people become aware that we have the means to end etreme poverty in this generation
6:41 PM [SL] these are your words?
6:42 PM [MM2] try seeing what your internal state is like after growing up in extreme poverty though
6:42 PM [MM2] notice I said "I guess"
6:42 PM [SL] again you make assumptions even of our individual upbringings, as if we do not understand where you are coming from
6:43 PM [MM2] notice I said "try"
6:43 PM [Vongruzzly] every life, every human has an existence and a consciouness, whatever their external reality. To place a judgement on how they are able to see their internal state is wrong thinking
6:43 PM [Vongruzzly] all humans experience their own style of 'suffering' one is no less relevant than the next
6:43 PM [MM2] okay, if you agree that we shouldn't think a little more about how to end extreme poverty and to apply our spiritual power to that end then.......
6:43 PM [MM2] that sucks   
6:44 PM [Vongruzzly] I certainly didn't say that
6:44 PM [MM2] brb
6:44 PM [MM2] phone
6:46 PM [SL] jesus mark, we speak about the root causes of poverty and how we see the causes of it and how to live with that and how to apply our energy in a world where this is allowed and a-g-a-i-n you do not accept that we have a different approach individually as to how to work spiritually energetically and practically than you do
6:46 PM [MM2] It feels like everything I say or do is not good enough or wrong to you SL
6:46 PM [MM2] I don't know...I just get the feeling of a control drama when I talk to you
6:46 PM [Vongruzzly] hehe
6:46 PM [MM2] I felt that way when I was a little kid too
6:46 PM [SL] if you want to couch your opinion within the framework of a spiritual chat room and concepts then pelase at least honor the spiritual truth we all share that each has their own walk in this life
6:47 PM [MM2] anyway
6:47 PM [MM2] You have good points SL and VON
6:47 PM [MM2] Von
6:47 PM [SL] and if you cannot or will not accept that ever person has their own path in this life then i suggest you search for a different forum
6:47 PM [MM2] I just felt the campaign faces them already in an intelligent manner
6:47 PM [SL] *every
6:48 PM [MM2] It sounds like you're a good man SL, but sometimes the greatest evils occur when good people sit around and do nothing
6:48 PM [MM2] I'm conscious of the problem, and a great many people are too.
6:48 PM [Vongruzzly] MM2, if the campaign resonates with you in this time that is great, go for it, as SL has said, but I think we are both saying that it doesn't resonate with our understanding of how poverty works
6:49 PM [MM2] I think the important thing to discuss is why it doesn't resonate with intelligent people like you
6:49 PM [MM2] but, that's okay
6:49 PM [SL] think the greatest evils in this world have occurred when 'good people' have decided what is best for others
6:49 PM [MM2] if you feel that everyone is on their own paths then my belief system believes that too
6:49 PM [SL] we name people who want to be left alone 'terrorists'
6:49 PM [MM2] but we're also all on each others paths I feel and that is where my goals stem from
6:49 PM [SL] you should really come to grips with the tenor of your thinking
6:50 PM [MM2] you should really stop telling me what to do SL   
6:50 PM [MM2] I'm on my own path!
6:50 PM [MM2]  
6:50 PM [Vongruzzly]  
6:50 PM [SL] and i am saying walk on but do not judge men you do not know, and do not even consider calling us evil
6:51 PM [SL] you are locked into duality from what your words reveal
6:51 PM [SL] mastery, on an inner level as well as expressed externally would be non judgemental
6:51 PM [SL] you say i am locking you into various boxes, i am saying i am only describing what you reveal of yourself,
6:51 PM [Vongruzzly] I am not sitting around doing nothing and wether you call me evil or not is irelevant. I would never call a person evil and perhaps that can give you some insight into the difference between us   
6:52 PM [SL] if you do not enjoy the image reflected back to you you can only look for your self
6:52 PM [MM2] Do you mind if I post this conversation on the celestine forum SL and explore it with other people
6:52 PM [SL] as you wish
6:53 PM [Vongruzzly] MM2, I would really love for you to answer my earlier question. I think the answer may surprise you...
6:53 PM [MM2] I just really feel like you're playing the interrogator control drama here SL
6:53 PM [MM2] I wouldn't mind getting some more opinions outside of this conversation
6:53 PM [Vongruzzly] Why do you care if poverty exists or not, if you are not experiencing it now?
6:53 PM [SL] if you think so, you say you want an engaged dialogue, and now you say you do not like the way this one has gone
6:53 PM [SL] this is not my issue
6:54 PM [MM2] I just feel hostility is all SL
6:54 PM [MM2] I'm just trying to find truths we can unite over
6:54 PM [SL] i would suggest to you that you have expressed yourself in a hostile manner to both of us
6:54 PM [MM2] its okay if you think I'm wrong, just point out the truth in that so that we have reasons is cool
6:54 PM [SL] and that you are feeling your self
6:54 PM [MM2] about your question Von, good one
6:54 PM [SL] we have been doing that, you do not like it, that is the only issue here
6:55 PM [Vongruzzly] Well MM2, I know SL a little bit and I think perhaps the hostility you are experiencing is what comes from your ego and your soul not listening to each other
6:55 PM [MM2] I lived in normal level "poverty" and know the kind of despair it brings to the spirit*
6:56 PM [MM2] and over the years I've felt that thoughtfulness and consideration for one another with high levels of rationality and reasons and even patience is a good way to go about it
6:56 PM [MM2] but in that rationality and thoughtfulness comes intelliegence
User Fawn has entered this room.
6:56 PM [MM2] and that is what is needed in group dynamics along with compassion and agreement on values
6:56 PM [Vongruzzly] HI Fawny
6:56 PM [MM2] in CV I feel like we have the compassion and values laid out, but not really the thoughtfulness..
6:56 PM [MM2] Hi Fawn
6:57 PM [Fawn] ((((((((((((((VON,SL,MM2))))))))))) Blessings   
6:57 PM [SL] heya fawn how ya been?
6:57 PM [MM2] and so to allow everyone to be thoughtful, I thought ending extreme poverty as a first step is a good way to start
6:57 PM [Fawn] wonderful : ty and you?
6:57 PM [MM2] or rather, the BEST way to start given our societal awareness levels
6:57 PM [Vongruzzly] so by your answer MM2, I take it that povrty is an emotional issue for you
6:57 PM [SL] pretty good
6:57 PM [Vongruzzly] perhaops a fear that it could happen to you?
6:57 PM [Fawn]  
6:58 PM [MM2] not emotional more as thoughtful issue
6:59 PM [Fawn] the first steps in ending or starting something,always starts with the steps we take as individuals
6:59 PM [MM2] the emotion had to do with my inner state of confidence and once I balanced that, I was able to become a little more thoughtful
6:59 PM [MM2] and hence came upon the extreme poverty issue, which is something I have not experienced and do not really wish anyone to experience unless they choose to
6:59 PM [MM2] conscoiusly
6:59 PM [Vongruzzly] I personally don't think extreme poverty is the place to start. I say this rationally because it has arisen from circumstances, it does not create those circumstances. And so to truely tackle pverty you first port of call would be to 'fix' the circumstances that give rise to poverty
7:00 PM [MM2] conscously.*
7:00 PM [Vongruzzly] exactly Fawn
7:00 PM [MM2] and that is what the campaign does Von
7:00 PM [Vongruzzly] so the campaing is to do away with government and economy?
7:00 PM [MM2] I'm not sure how else you would intelligently go about solving a problem
7:01 PM [Vongruzzly] OK, so what do you see as the causes of poverty?
7:01 PM [Vongruzzly] let go through this one step at a time
7:01 PM [MM2] the materialistic and consumerist idealogy that many of our kind live by
7:02 PM [Vongruzzly] you?
7:02 PM [MM2] aweseom Von!
7:02 PM [Vongruzzly] do you live by it too?
7:02 PM [MM2] I wouldn't say so. I don't believe its the reason why I spent copious amounts of time in the Celestine Community
7:03 PM [Vongruzzly] but I'm not talking about the thought, I'm talking about the action
7:03 PM [Vongruzzly] are your actions consummerist as you put it?
7:03 PM [MM2] (awesome! Thanks for using the Socratic Method Von.)
7:03 PM [MM2] well, do you mind if I grab the definition of consumerism?
7:03 PM [Vongruzzly] do you consume beyond what is sustainable?
7:03 PM [Fawn] do your actions match your words
7:04 PM [Vongruzzly] do you live in a way that the entire population could live that way sustainably?
7:04 PM [MM2] " the concept that an ever-expanding consumption of goods is advantageous to the economy."
7:04 PM [MM2] given this defintion, no, I'm not a consumerist and my actions do not support that




7:11 PM [Fawn] asks von where the aspirins are kept   
7:11 PM [MM2] but its the "ever consuming" manner that is troublesome
7:11 PM [Vongruzzly] no its not
7:11 PM [MM2] that means they consumer forever to infinity and beyond!
7:12 PM [SL] oh ok so then its ok if some people live lives of luxury
7:12 PM [Vongruzzly] its people saying one thing and doing another - that is where the true deception of humanity lies
7:12 PM [SL] as long as they are 'safe' whatever that means
7:12 PM [Fawn] Amen von,they are "deluding" themselves
7:12 PM [Vongruzzly] and that is where enlightenment lives
7:13 PM [MM2] yes, because that's probably the kind of what life will be like in a "more thoughtful" or more "spiritual world" SL. And by luxury I mean in a spiritually open mind state of being
7:13 PM [MM2] people in extreme poverty don't have that luxury it seems
7:13 PM [Vongruzzly] grrrrrrrrrr
7:13 PM [MM2] hold on Von
7:13 PM [MM2] I've only addressed SL, give me a minute to address what you've said
7:13 PM [SL] you are kidding yourself MM2 to equate the level of spiritual awareness with physical circumstances
7:14 PM [MM2] give me a second
7:14 PM [MM2] to catch up
7:14 PM [Vongruzzly] It doesn't matter MM2, I haven't said it to recive your answer, I already know your answer. I have said those things to help you see yourself
7:14 PM [SL] you remind me of some bob dylan lyrics, 'my clothes are wet, tight on my skin, but not as tight as the corner i've painted myself in'
7:15 PM [MM2] Do I still have permission from you guys to post this conversation on the forum?
7:15 PM [SL] i gotta run, its been fun, i hope mark, that it has been enjoyable for you too
7:15 PM [Fawn] (((((((((((((((SL))))))))))))))
7:15 PM [SL] take it easy grahame, fawn
7:15 PM [SL] Peace
7:15 PM [MM2] Cya SL
User SL has logged out.
7:15 PM [Fawn] Blessings
7:16 PM [MM2] Its okay Von. I feel like I know why you're frustrated
7:16 PM [Vongruzzly] I'm not frustrated MM2
7:16 PM [Fawn] mm,i have to ask why you would want to post this on the forum?
7:16 PM [MM2] If you don't find that Make Poverty History is an appropriate place to apply your energy thats okay
7:16 PM [Fawn] what are you hoping to achieve by doing that?
7:16 PM [Vongruzzly] very generous of you   
7:17 PM [MM2] because the way this conversation flowed Fawn was not optimal
7:17 PM [Vongruzzly] hehe
7:17 PM [MM2] there were control dramas at play here that limited the flow I feel
7:17 PM [Fawn] in his view?
7:17 PM [MM2] and I'd like to get other peoples views on this as well
7:17 PM [Vongruzzly] how would an optimal flow have looked?
7:17 PM [Fawn] but,isnt that just "your" perception MM?
7:18 PM [MM2] right Fawn
7:18 PM [Fawn] in his view=in whos view
7:18 PM [MM2] you're exactly right
7:18 PM [Fawn] so why the need to post?
7:19 PM [MM2] to have more room and time to look over and find evidence that there were control dramas at play and to maybe show SL and Von these limitations
7:19 PM [Vongruzzly] and what would the topic be?
7:19 PM [MM2] if they wanted to see them
7:19 PM [Vongruzzly] huh?
7:20 PM [Fawn] MM,is that they way you approach conversations in life,as well?
7:20 PM [Vongruzzly] Dude, this is how I saw the flow in laymans terms...
7:20 PM [MM2] because it is just my opinion though, I feel its probably better to get more views in on this
7:20 PM [MM2] not all Fawn
7:20 PM [Vongruzzly] "I think this"
7:20 PM [Fawn] and didnt sl and von give you their opinions?
7:20 PM [Vongruzzly] "oh really, that's not why I think"
7:20 PM [Vongruzzly] "well you should"
7:20 PM [Vongruzzly]  
7:21 PM [MM2] yes, but they might have done so through control dramas Fawn
7:21 PM [Vongruzzly]  
7:21 PM [MM2] which limited our ability to flow and understand each other
7:21 PM [Fawn]   again,your perceptions
7:21 PM [MM2] that's how I felt anyway
7:21 PM [MM2] right, but other people might agree with my perceptions Fawn
7:21 PM [MM2] and if they don't
7:21 PM [Vongruzzly] perhaps they were yours MM2   
7:21 PM [Fawn] ohhhh so thats what this is about,von and sl didnt agree with your perceptions?
7:22 PM [Vongruzzly] Which control drama do you think SL and I were using?
7:22 PM [MM2] and they have good reasons for not agreeing, then I should acknowledge those reasons and consider that really I was the one playing the control drama
7:22 PM [MM2] no that's not it Fawn
7:23 PM [Fawn] have you ever heard about seeing in another,that which is within us?
7:23 PM [Vongruzzly] Jung?
7:23 PM [Fawn] some wise dude   
7:23 PM [Vongruzzly] uhu
7:23 PM [MM2] I don't htI don't htink that's it
7:23 PM [MM2] whoa, my computer lagged   
7:23 PM [MM2] I feel like SL was using the interrogator Von
7:23 PM [MM2] I don't think you were playing a control drama till the end here
7:23 PM [Vongruzzly] did he ask a lot of questions?
7:24 PM [Vongruzzly] I think interrogators are supposed to ask a lot of questions
7:24 PM [MM2] questions are great Von
7:24 PM [MM2] that's why I thanked you for using the Socratic Method
7:25 PM [MM2] it was just the intent behind the questions that I'm questioning a little bit and the consistency behind them
7:25 PM [Fawn] so von was using the socratic method,but sl was interrogating?
7:25 PM [Vongruzzly] At the end I was trying a different approach to communication because up until then it seemed more like a 'unication' if I might coin a new term   
7:25 PM [MM2] hmm, unication?
7:25 PM [Vongruzzly] Whats the socratic method?
7:25 PM [Vongruzzly] yeah, one sided conversation
7:25 PM [Fawn] answering a q with a q
7:25 PM [Vongruzzly] talk goes out but nothing goes back in   
7:25 PM [MM2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method
7:25 PM [Vongruzzly] oh
7:26 PM [Vongruzzly] was I using that   
7:26 PM [Fawn]  
7:26 PM [Vongruzzly] cool
7:26 PM [MM2] yeah, it was cool Von   
7:26 PM [MM2] but then it felt like you got a little carried away
7:26 PM [Fawn] gives von a pat on the back ,well done love   
7:26 PM [Vongruzzly] didn't work though because I never go tyou to answer a question
7:26 PM [MM2] brb
7:26 PM [Vongruzzly] becasue I am pretty sure you saw the answer with in and didn;t like what you saw
7:27 PM [Vongruzzly] there seem to be a lot of answers you don;t like
7:27 PM [Vongruzzly]   thanks Fawny
7:27 PM [Fawn] mwaaa
7:27 PM [Fawn]  
7:28 PM [Vongruzzly] might light an insense to clear the air   
User lightweaver has entered this room.
7:28 PM [Fawn] have some white sage here,want some?
7:28 PM [MM2] Hi light
7:28 PM [lightweaver] hey guys
7:28 PM [Fawn] hi lw
7:28 PM [lightweaver] white sage would be very cool - ty
7:29 PM [MM2] you're right Von, there were answers you gave that I didn't agree with, but the important thing
7:29 PM [MM2] is not that I didn't agree
7:29 PM [Vongruzzly] yes please fawn
7:29 PM [lightweaver] are you away from the fires fawn?
7:29 PM [Fawn] yes lw,next state
7:29 PM [lightweaver] good
7:29 PM [Fawn] passes von a bundle of sage
7:30 PM [Vongruzzly] thanks
7:30 PM [Fawn] welcome love
7:31 PM [Vongruzzly] Looks like the coppers are gonna go hard at the arsonists Fawn
7:31 PM [Vongruzzly] some tuff talk going on
7:31 PM [Fawn] MM,whar other area in your life,do you feel like you are being attacked?
7:31 PM [Vongruzzly]  
7:32 PM [Fawn] have they proven it was arson,von?
7:32 PM [Vongruzzly] nice question Fawn
7:32 PM [Vongruzzly] some of the worst ones were it seems
7:33 PM [Fawn] i had heard that,i know they have baricaded off areas,so evidence is not destroyed
7:33 PM [Fawn] MM?
7:34 PM [MM2] just give me a minute
7:34 PM [MM2] I'm posting the conversation on the forum
7:34 PM [MM2] man, I would have loved this 9 years ago!!   
7:34 PM [MM2] are you on the forum Von?
7:34 PM [MM2] we should go through it together
7:35 PM [Vongruzzly] why?
7:35 PM [Fawn] why re hash what has already been discussed????????????
7:35 PM [Fawn] been discussed........let it go......move on
7:36 PM [Vongruzzly] go with the flow eh
7:36 PM [Fawn] oooo you are a mind reader von   
7:36 PM [lightweaver]  
7:36 PM [Vongruzzly]  
7:37 PM [MM2] Because I truly want to improve the flow Von
7:37 PM [MM2] and I think conversations like this will help people improve
7:37 PM [Fawn] why get bogged down with re hashing it,over and over again?????
7:37 PM [Fawn] unless there is another agena behind it
7:37 PM [MM2] because for the last 9 years fawn, these type of conversations do keep re hashing themselves over and over again
7:37 PM [Fawn] agenda
7:38 PM [Vongruzzly] that's cause people don't listen!   
7:38 PM [Fawn]  
7:38 PM [Fawn] ya got a point there von
7:38 PM [Vongruzzly] you can;t improve the flow, the flow is the flow
7:38 PM [MM2] Cya fawn
7:38 PM [Vongruzzly] can you in[prove the flow of a river?
7:38 PM [MM2] Take care!
7:39 PM [Fawn] ooooo now thats creepy von,i just though of a river flowing
7:39 PM [Vongruzzly]  
7:39 PM [MM2] yes you can Von, but first you have to do something
7:39 PM [Vongruzzly]  
7:39 PM [Fawn] stop the flow,and you block it up
7:39 PM [Vongruzzly] if you change it, is it still the flow?
7:39 PM [Fawn] oh,am i going somehwre MM?
7:39 PM [Vongruzzly] do you mean direct the flow?
7:40 PM [Vongruzzly]   Fawn
7:40 PM [Fawn]  
7:40 PM [lightweaver] you cannot control the flow
7:40 PM [MM2] (I just realized that my screen was scrolled to the top Fawn and up there you had said goodbye and I thought you said it down here    )
7:40 PM [lightweaver] we all "go with the flow"
7:40 PM [Vongruzzly] The thing is, if people wanted to go in a certain direction, then that is where the flow would go
7:40 PM [Fawn]   when did i say goodbye???????????
7:40 PM [MM2] I think what I mean is that first we need to decide the goals we wish to achieve before we can improve anything
7:41 PM [MM2] including flow
7:41 PM [Fawn]  
7:41 PM [Vongruzzly] if it is not going in the direction you want it to MM@ and you can;t influence it then maybe you need to find another flow?
7:41 PM [Vongruzzly] or perhaps you should just sit by the river and watch it for a while
7:41 PM [MM2] (oh, on second look, you were saying "blessings" to when SL left and my brain put 2 and 2 together in the wrong way haha )
7:41 PM [MM2] (my mistake, welcome back!    )
7:41 PM [Fawn] that happens,MM   
7:42 PM [lightweaver] i'm like a rapid in the flow   


 
7:42 PM [Vongruzzly] What is that book by Herman Hesse?
7:42 PM [lightweaver] i knew once upon a time
7:42 PM [lightweaver] but can't remember now
7:42 PM [MM2] I've watched and tried to influence it for 9 years Von
7:43 PM [Vongruzzly] Siddartha
User kyrie8 has entered this room.
7:43 PM [Vongruzzly] You should read Siddartha MM2
7:43 PM [MM2] I even took a break for the last 3 and thought that now more than ever we have a chance to improve the flow.
7:43 PM [MM2] I think I have Von
7:43 PM [Fawn] its like a wave approaching the beach....the wave is ONE......but each drop is coming from a different aspect......the goal is the same,to arrive on the beach
7:43 PM [Vongruzzly] ther is no improving the flow, the flow is the folw
7:43 PM [Vongruzzly] *flow
7:43 PM [MM2] I disagree Von
7:43 PM [Vongruzzly] how can you?
7:44 PM [Fawn]  
7:44 PM [Vongruzzly] can you improve God?
7:44 PM [MM2] ahhh
7:44 PM [MM2] and therein lies the crux!
7:44 PM [Vongruzzly] what?
7:44 PM [MM2] you are talking about flow in an absolute sense
7:44 PM [Fawn] feels a headspin coming on   
7:44 PM [lightweaver] the goddess can improve us
7:44 PM [MM2] and there I would have to agree with you philosophically
7:44 PM [kyrie8] the flow is the flow, what can be inproved upon is one responce to it
7:44 PM [MM2] but in our limited forms we cannot know the determinism of the reality
7:44 PM [Vongruzzly]   we are already perfect lightweaaver, how can we be anything else?
7:45 PM [Fawn] ((((((((((((((((kyrie)))))))))))))))) sorry love,didnt see you come in
7:45 PM [MM2] so we have the illusion of freedom to try and influence it in a way that matches our desires
7:45 PM [lightweaver] "here in heaven, we will wait for your arrival" sings mindy smith - come to jesus - on u-tube - what an amazing song
7:45 PM [MM2] Hi kyrie
7:45 PM [kyrie8] (((fawn))))
7:45 PM [Vongruzzly] well I don;t think we are limited MM2, but if that is the choice you make for yourself, go for it
7:45 PM [lightweaver] i am most definately imperfect   
7:45 PM [kyrie8] (((MM2))))
7:45 PM [Vongruzzly] perfect in you imperfection then
7:45 PM [Vongruzzly] as you wish   
7:45 PM [Fawn] MM,this whole world is an illusion
7:45 PM [lightweaver]  
7:45 PM [MM2] if we weren't limited Von, we would be God in the highest state of being at all times
7:46 PM [MM2] I believe we are god
7:46 PM [MM2] but just a different limited form of it
7:46 PM [Vongruzzly]  
7:46 PM [MM2] I'm sure you probably heard something like that too
7:46 PM [lightweaver] i believe everything is the goddess
7:46 PM [Vongruzzly] you are a contradictory fellow MM2
7:46 PM [Fawn]   make a good politician
7:46 PM [MM2] ahh, and that's where philosophers like descartes, kant, augustus and others are stuck too Von
7:47 PM [MM2] we're all stuck here, to acknowledge these paradoxes until our awareness levels increase enough to understand them more fully
7:47 PM [Fawn] shakes head
7:47 PM [Vongruzzly]  
7:47 PM [lightweaver] i believe we were all sent down from paradise to work things out on earth
7:47 PM [lightweaver] life on earth is one massive test
7:48 PM [Vongruzzly] hehe
7:48 PM [kyrie8] but MM2, our purpose is to blend our different pieces of perfection to make a whole unit
7:48 PM [Vongruzzly] well I've always hated exams
7:48 PM [lightweaver]  
7:48 PM [kyrie8] or this is my belief
7:48 PM [lightweaver] me too   
7:49 PM [MM2] hmm, if no one wants to change the poverty problem, then how can the flow ever change it Von?
7:49 PM [kyrie8] I can't wait till finals are over
7:49 PM [lightweaver]  
7:50 PM [Vongruzzly] I think we experience conflict, and that conflict shows us how our spiritual , mental and physical beings are out of sync. The purpose is to bring those three into sync.
7:50 PM [Vongruzzly] We can do this by waling our talk
7:50 PM [Vongruzzly] *walking
7:50 PM [Vongruzzly]   kyrie8
7:50 PM [kyrie8]  
7:50 PM [MM2] right, do you want to end poverty Von?
7:50 PM [MM2] (extreme poverty)
7:50 PM [Vongruzzly] not really
7:51 PM [Vongruzzly] it is of no concern to me
7:51 PM [MM2] whoa
7:51 PM [Vongruzzly] why should it be?
7:51 PM [MM2] then you should go live in it for a while   
7:51 PM [Vongruzzly] why?
7:51 PM [MM2] because what seperates you from them Von
7:51 PM [MM2] seems to be luck
7:51 PM [Vongruzzly] what good would that do me
7:51 PM [MM2] and circumstance
7:51 PM [Vongruzzly] perhaps
7:51 PM [Vongruzzly] or perhaps it is just perception
7:51 PM [kyrie8] me me me...... its always about me......
7:51 PM [lightweaver] if the world was run as a charity - there would be no poverty
7:52 PM [MM2] hmm
7:52 PM [lightweaver] and some people don't want much
7:52 PM [MM2] I wouldn't agree light
7:52 PM [Vongruzzly]  
7:52 PM [lightweaver]  
7:52 PM [lightweaver] our massive supermarkets throw much food away - and yet in other countries people starve
7:52 PM [Vongruzzly] what does poverty have to do with you now MM@?
7:53 PM [MM2] justice and equality
7:53 PM [Vongruzzly] not that I want to go over ald territory, but an answer would be nic
7:53 PM [Vongruzzly] e
7:53 PM [MM2] brb
7:53 PM [Vongruzzly] what are they?
7:53 PM [Vongruzzly] haha
7:53 PM [Vongruzzly] always with the brb
7:53 PM [Vongruzzly]  
7:53 PM [MM2] look them up in the dictionary von
7:53 PM [MM2] brb
7:53 PM [kyrie8] Justice will be done
7:54 PM [kyrie8] if not in this life, in the next
7:54 PM [kyrie8] Karma will be srved
7:54 PM [kyrie8] served
7:55 PM [Vongruzzly] Foster harmony and peace
7:55 PM [Vongruzzly] encourage growth and community
7:55 PM [kyrie8] Be Harmony and peace
7:55 PM [Vongruzzly] co-operation
7:56 PM [Vongruzzly] yeah man, be it
7:56 PM [Fawn] sits on the couch and smiles
7:56 PM [Vongruzzly] be abundant
7:56 PM [Vongruzzly] create abundance
7:56 PM [Vongruzzly] share
7:57 PM [Vongruzzly] this is where our energy belongs
7:57 PM [Vongruzzly] our energy does not belong with famine and poverty
7:57 PM [kyrie8]   Put a little love in your heart
7:57 PM [Vongruzzly] even the words are heavy
7:57 PM [Vongruzzly]  
7:58 PM [kyrie8] shutting up now
7:58 PM [Fawn]  
7:58 PM [Vongruzzly]  
7:58 PM Vongruzzly stll has a headache
7:59 PM [Fawn] just took a panadol   
7:59 PM [kyrie8] Blessings von
7:59 PM [Vongruzzly]  
8:00 PM [Vongruzzly] what's going on up staris?
8:00 PM [Vongruzzly] *stairs
8:00 PM [Fawn] you mean downstairs   
8:00 PM [Vongruzzly] oh yeah, I suppose
8:00 PM [kyrie8] the usual........ just came from a discussion of tantric sex......
8:00 PM [Vongruzzly]  
8:00 PM [Fawn]   von
8:00 PM [kyrie8]  
8:00 PM [Fawn] oooooo
8:00 PM [Vongruzzly]  
8:01 PM [Fawn] sounds like more fun,dont it von   
8:01 PM [Vongruzzly]  
8:01 PM [Vongruzzly] nothing like having a DISCUSSION about tantric sex   
8:01 PM [Fawn] knows Sting and his wife practice it
8:01 PM [kyrie8]  
8:02 PM [Fawn]   von
8:02 PM [Vongruzzly]  
8:02 PM [Vongruzzly] I think people prefer to just talk their talk   
8:02 PM [kyrie8] very interesting
8:02 PM [Vongruzzly] walking is too much effort
8:02 PM [Vongruzzly]  
8:03 PM [Fawn] yep,lip service is so much easier   
8:03 PM [kyrie8] it isindeed
8:03 PM [Vongruzzly] what we need is some little robots or minions that we can send out to do stuff for us!
8:03 PM [Vongruzzly] hehe
8:04 PM [Fawn] now von,i think you just might have something there
8:04 PM [kyrie8] nahhhhh too busy living for a robot to do it for me
8:04 PM [Vongruzzly] "hey, I've got this great idea about being good to each other, robot take this cake over to the neighbours house and tell them it's good to see them"   
8:05 PM [Fawn] rofl
8:05 PM [kyrie8] only if the robot is willing to make the cake
8:05 PM [Vongruzzly]   exactly
8:05 PM [Fawn] sends her bot over to von and says....give him a hug from me   
8:05 PM [Vongruzzly]  
8:06 PM [Vongruzzly] damn robots!   
8:06 PM [kyrie8] ahhhh the joys of cloning
8:06 PM [Fawn]  
8:06 PM [Vongruzzly]  
8:06 PM [Vongruzzly] I like those little intervals

------------------------------------------------------------

It is these kinds of conversations that are interesting and still allow learning to take place, but at a much reduced and dramatic rate.
_________________
Pessimists find difficulty in every opportunity. Optimists find opportunity in every difficulty.

[Theressa]

Urm i have read these conversations and i will give MY thoughts.

I am aware of the dynamics that are involved in the Social/Economic human world. I am aware of the poverty that is caused by the Social structures. I am aware of the rich and poor divide. I therefore, understand why you MM2 would want to discuss such a topic.

For it is in knowing how we impact the whole that helps us gain conscious awareness so we can change our behaviours if we so choose.

Now I to wish i could do something to convince the riches nations in the world to share the resources more equally with others in the world. I also wish I could convince the rich to realign the economic and social structures so that there was not some living in luxury and some without the basic stuff.

Now where does this leave me bearing in mind I know that Poverty exists and is caused by Social structures and for the benefit of some at the expense of the many?

Also if I value Justice and equality of opportunity to share in abundance and not have only a minority who are rich beyond comprehension.

However, bearing all this in mind, what can i do to change any of it?

This i do not know?

On the one hand i do believe that ALL comes from SOURCE and therefore, some conditions are necessary for us to grow. If this is the case maybe things are as they need to be and thus, i do not need to worry about the above. This i am unsure of at this time?

Now moving on to the fact of whether these conversations are control dramas or not?

I got the impression that there were two VIEW operating here in these posts. It is in this i see the dilemma. I have been trying myself to assimilate my idea around spirituality with the new stuff about poverty and justice and equality which is in the social sphere.

There is the side that thinks since all happens as it is suppose to or for a reason for us to learn that we should leave things well alone and they will all work out in the end.

Then there are those who believe we have to become conscious and begin to behave differently if we are to come up with other outcomes.

I am thinking as i am typing that some are not yet evolved enough to see what they are doing. However, i do believe that there are different levels of growth and thus, some are still at the level where they are not evolved enough to see what they are doing yet! They will only reach this state when they are ready to do so!

So, what i see is that on the one hand some of the souls are not ready to be conscious and some are. Some believe we need to do nothing and things will just all work out. Some believe that since they are aware of their impact then they should change their own actions where possible. Then there are those of us, like myself that feels that certain things are outside my current resources. E.G affording organic foods.

Some believe that there is no problem with inequality -neo liberal views. Then there are more communist views. I am more in thinking that we should decide what we each value and do what we can for the highest good.

I think that my view is along the lines of utilitarian views of doing what is for the good of the many.

So, is there a control drama going on here? YES

you are all on different levels and coming at this from different views totally. Are you all right, wrong or are you all just coming at it from different angles and maybe all of them are valid?

My view is that it is not possible for me or anyone to change others minds! Only they can do that. You put out some ideas and views and that is not controlling, however the minute you or they try to convince u it is all happening as it should be and you should just go with the flow AND the minute you try to get them to be conscious of their actions and they do not see it from your standpoint then you to are being controlling.

The point is and its frustrating at times is that we live in a simultaneous universe where many diverse ideas and values and ways of viewing the world are all operating at the same time. This is what makes up for a diverse universe and this is how SPIRIT gets to experience itself as many facets.

Therefore, you can decide your own values and what you see as right and good AND so can they and others but the minute you try to do more than influence another then u walk into CONTROLLING.

Love and light
Theressa

[Theressa]

A final point is that since the whole purpose of life is so that SPIRIT can experience every FACET of itself then maybe it needs to experience the poverty and injustice etc because then it can recognise and contrast this with the opposite. Like one is realised by experiencing its opposite.

I think the main point is to do what YOUR intuition is telling you and to let go of trying to control anyone else. If they are following their own intuition then they will be acting rightly inalignment with what SPIRIT wants to experience.

Love
Theressa xxx

[MM2]

Hey Theressa,

When I asked if you could see any control drama's at play, I meant in relation to the Celestine Insights ie: Poor Me drama, Aloof Drama, Interrogator Drama, and Intimidator control drama.

I did not wish for anyone to argue the merit of the topic of the conversation or the views, but more about HOW that conversation was taking place. I believe you misinterpreted what I was asking for in this sentence:

[ceinvests]

Dare I?

I see 1 participant playing the 'poor me' drama.

I see 1 participant playing the interagator drama.

I see 1 participant going between aloof and controller drama.

I see 1 participant playing the controller drama.

I see some ideas being discussed and some real discussion and give and take.

I see some interesting insights 'river flowing' and I can get a feel for a few belief systems.

Have you ever read The People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck or any of his books ?

Were you having this chat to research drama behavior or to discuss extreme poverty? I honestly was not sure.
_________________
Searching Searcher

[MM2]

Hey ceinvests,

It appears like you believe everyone in the conversation is playing a control drama? Is there anyone not playing a control drama that spoke up?

The importance isn't so much that people are playing control dramas, but how they are playing them and what allows us to pick out which ones are playing them. For example, why is one person playing the poor me and what specifically in the conversation alluded to that decision on your part? This might allow us to determine who played a control drama first that triggered a cascade of control dramas and thus the extra drama in the conversation. Is anyone in the conversation speaking from reason or remaining reasonable despite the rise of controls dramas?


If it helps, I can begin posting these discussions without names, but rather "Person 1", "person 2" etc. so that we can make more specific references without worrying about insulting or hurting someone.


I've never heard of the controller drama before ceinvests. Is that the intimidator?

I have not read The People of the Lie. I will look it up.

I was researching the control dramas and discussing extreme poverty at the same time, hopefully to link how control dramas permit such states of being to persist even if speaking with generally good intentioned people.
_________________
Pessimists find difficulty in every opportunity. Optimists find opportunity in every difficulty.

[ceinvests]

[MM2]

Hey ceinvests,

I greatly appreciate your honesty and the courage it takes to speak up on these matters.

I realize now that after reading the posted conversation, a good portion of it is missing from the beginning and in the middle. We had been talking about poverty and the things that we were doing to end extreme poverty. The reason why I posted the conversation where I did was because I recognized that the conversation was no longer focused on the REASONS I had previously given for why we were pursuing the Make Poverty History campaign instead of some other initiatives and why solving the poverty problem was important.

Instead, if you look closely, the conversation had turned towards judgments on my character rather than the reasons of the arguments. In philosophy, this is an informal fallacy called the ad Hominem argument and it happens very very often in spiritual communities.

People who use the interrogator control drama use the ad Hominem argument the majority of the time. This is why I had suspected and expressed to SL that he may have lapsed into a control drama.

This is also when my focus switched from discussing extreme poverty to using the conversation as an example of how control dramas reduce effective conversation. Reading over the conversation, its a bit choppy so what if I put it this way:

[MM2]

I realize that you feel I was the one preaching and being a poor student ceinvests. It can appear with a quick read through that I was adding to the hostility of the conversation. I thought it may be interesting to split up the conversation into each participant, and examine their sentences by themselves to get a better impression of the tone that person had, whether they were preaching, being open, learning, frustrated, accusatory, overly judgemental or rational.

SL:

[rishi]

Dear MM2,

This conversation you attempted on the chat is a classic case, carbon copy of many experiences I've had over the years. I commend your efforts toward cause-oriented conversation.

I thought your comments to be extemely diplomatic...you obviously made every effort to keep the conversation focused on SUBJECTS rather than upon "control dramas". The people you were speaking to, on the other hand, obviously felt it necessary to continually try to derail the subject you were bringing up, (ie the ending of extreme poverty) by constantly twisting it back into personal issues. I believe they did this in order to avoid the subjects you were addressing, with comments like "don't be judgemental" and "everyone has their own path to walk" and so forth, thereby sidestepping any responsiblity for what you were saying.

I've said the following on chats and forums many times before...

"There is really only ONE subject that is under discussion here, and one only, (with rare exceptions such as your posts, Mark). That one subject is the speakers themselves. People in this modern age use subjects to speak of themselves, and actually object to anyone speaking of subjects for their own sake, as this shows them they are dedicated only to personality rather than CAUSE."

In any case, regarding the alleviation of extreme poverty... Might I point out that the ascetic tradition in India and other such places actually places high spiritual value on "having nothing". This state of having nothing, it is believed, implies that the aspirant is not otherwise distracted by the material world. In this state of non-distraction then, the ascetic can focus totally on spiritual focuses and self refinement/knowledge.

I personally don't consider such an approach to be very practical, even though I do live simply. However this example does tend poke a large hole in your argument that extreme poverty is a distraction from spiritual focus, in fact, it represents the very opposite extreme of that thinking.

I maintian that the basis of world problems is a crisis of consciousness, or should I say, the lack of high(er) consciousness in the world. This lack then translates itself down into the physical realm as war, social unrest and material lack. Although I agree with you that to alleviate this poverty in a third of the world COULD increase the chances for the expansion of consciousnes in those areas, I say that it will not, because material conditions are not the root issue here. Consciousness is the root of roots, even for souls without bodies.

If material well-being WAS the main criteria for the expansion of consciousness, then why do we not see more of it in the Western world? What we see in fact, is that if you give most humans literally EVERYTHING they want, no matter how much they want already, they will then only want more.

Once again, this is a spiritual lack of right-consciousness...
_________________
The Intent of the Master is the mastery of intent



Founder of the World Mind Society http://www.eoni.com/~visionquest

[MM2]

Hey rishi,

Thank you for your comments. The subject of this thread had turned to control dramas but not in the attacking, derailing sense. After I had tried to keep the conversation somewhat focused on the subject of extreme poverty and was unsuccessful, I decided to make the focus the control drama's themselves instead of a blame game or things of that nature which you have mentioned above.

To your comment on poverty: if you remove "extreme" from extreme poverty, then I can see your comment about India and spiritual focus to be applicable. But in extreme poverty, you die without choice. Extreme poverty is not simple living and does not come any where close. Not having your basic needs met is extreme poverty and I would argue that when your basic needs aren't met after a period of time...you will not be able to focus on spirituality. I would argue that you would have a hard time focusing on anything.

Simple living does not, it appears, poke a large whole because if you lived in extreme poverty long enough, you would not be around to think spiritually at all. Most people living in extreme poverty do not live past 5 years of age...I'm not sure if focus a key attribute at this age.
_________________
Pessimists find difficulty in every opportunity. Optimists find opportunity in every difficulty.

[truth]

... we have to feel the messages.

You see I don't think that mankind can make a model for life with rules and regulations around how we should live. My logic being that, although we 'create' the life in which we live, if we had to, man could not at this point in time recreate the life we live, from the tiniest of particles to the largest of glorious vistas we just couldn't do it. Even what would appear to be the simplest thing, two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, nope, we can't even make water. So, if we can't create life, how can we expect to be able to work out rules for the way in which we should live it? Okay, so anarchy rules, in my book anyway, because I have faith in people.

The problem is, is that we are in a transition stage, we are learning that rules have had their day - just look at the size of legislature, but history has determined that we have to follow the rules... whose? Well, the only rules that count at the end of the day are our own individual set of rules.

So what of the transition, how can we facilitate that? All we can do is the best we can (which we do) and allow everyone else to do the best that they can (which they do). How? Well, we all have prejudices and preferences that influence the way we experience life, the only way I've found to have a truly spiritually flowing conversation is to do just that, to go with the flow, but with firm intentions of being and learning and by endeavouring to leave personal preferences and prejudices, expectations and pre-conceived ideas at the door... it's not easy. The good news being that when we open our eyes to the fact that we are learning, we learn to learn from our mistakes!

Ceinvests was spot on with the learning process, we never cease to learn and teachers have to be more open minded to all they have to learn wherever life places them than most, because we've been culturally programmed, hence the words teacher and pupil, to be either the instructor or the instructed. Times are changing and we are realising that opportunities to share our lives with others, whatever their race, age and gender, are opportunities to bring a little bit more of who we really want to be and a little bit more of who they want to be, to life.

BTW, you've brought yourself to this forum for a very clear reason, because everything you need to be everything you really want to be is all here, in this form, especially for you to learn what you want to do - learn through sharing.

Good luck and enjoy!
Pat

[MM2]

You're comments are interesting truth.

Do you have any words on the subject of this thread or maybe an answer to the question of this thread?
_________________
Pessimists find difficulty in every opportunity. Optimists find opportunity in every difficulty.

[truth]

Hi MM2,

When I wrote, I wrote with the thread in mind, but for some reason my message didn't get through... any ideas?

Pat

[MM2]

Hey truth,

I suppose you could answer or express yourself in a more direct way that pertains to the thread. I already understand that you like anarchy, don't care about ending extreme poverty, you don't like to be told what to do through rules or guidelines, you know about the balance of teacher student, you're aware of determinism in some fashion and believe we can create but not control in a taoist fashion.

What you did not talk about or mention was if anyone in the conversation posted was playing a control drama and what parts of that conversation made you feel that way.

By dancing, in a way, around the topic, you're coming off as aloof to me truth. This may be why you think your message isn't getting through.
_________________
Pessimists find difficulty in every opportunity. Optimists find opportunity in every difficulty.