re: judgementalism - What is your opinion??

[earthfather]

The other day, I was having a conversation with a friend, who indicated that they have an approach to life as being "non-judgemental". This gave me pause, as, IMHO, I feel that in order to have a life of quality, one must be judgemental, since being as such allows one to make choices and choose a particular path or paths. The simple act of choosing a path over numerous other paths, is by definition - a judgement. How else can we decide whom to marry or what to have for dinner? That being said, I am of the opinion that in dealing with the people that come into one's life, that one must make judgements about the individuals particular path as it relates to our own. In other words, being non-judgemental is tacit approval of poor behaviour, and therefore what we read in the newspaper is behaviour that has the stamp of "societal approval". We can then say that behaviours such as murder, adultery, spousal abuse or "train wrecks" of the entertainment industry (just picking from this morning's headlines), are in fact, permissable - as long as these behaviours are not directed at us or require us to veer away from our chosen path(s), and therefore we can be non-judgemental (or at least non-judgemental until such behaviours affect our own - becoming judgemental in this process).

I am curious as to other's opinions on this subject and would be delighted to engage in continued discussion.

warm regards,

earthfather
_________________
“Audio Panton, Cogito Singularis"

Listen to everything, think for yourself.

[rishi]

This is an excellent post of great value, thank you for posing this question.
I want to answer it to honor your effort, even though I've spoken on this subject here at length.

You are absolutely right about the obvious and implicit need for judgment in conducting ones' life. The examples you gave are irrefutable.

The whole purpose of the, "you shouldn't judge other people" thing is to avoid responsiblity for the truth, and to avoid what might well be rightful criticism. In fact this very premise is absurd, because as soon as you tell someone, "you shouldn't judge others" you have in fact judged them as being judgmental. This is dishonest, self-defeating thinking that is illogical, impractical and basically nonsensical.

The question for the true spiritual practitioner isn't how not to judge, but how to judge accurately. To "judge" is in basic meaning, "to examine the qualities and properties of something to accurately determine it's nature". This is what the practitioner MUST do in order to stand for truth rather than compromise truth via some half baked nonsense that cannot justify itself, (the nonjudgment thing).

Rather than taking the anti-intellectual non-judgment stance, it is far better to discern/discuss what does in fact allow accurate evaluation of what is perceived. Along such a direction are logic, clarity and the scientific method.
_________________
The Intent of the Master is the mastery of intent



Founder of the World Mind Society http://www.eoni.com/~visionquest

[truth]

Hi Earthfather,

For me you've hit on the big spiritual/ethical divide here in respect of an incredibly complex subject, it's difficult for me to put it into a soundbite, but here goes my contribution...

I agree that we all want tidy and crime-free neighbourhoods etc, but I think that when we judge something for not being how we think it should, we limit our view, and possible solutions, by focusing only on the end result of a whole stream of causes - it's easy, it's quick, but is it effective? '200 knife crimes in two weeks!' What does that mean? What of the people involved - the victims, families, what brought them to that situation of carrying, using and being stabbed by the knives? Do we care? Of course we care, but how do we turn this caring into action? How do live with it?

The ethical rationale route - declare that the action is wrong, bandage the wounds, lock up the 'criminals' and prepare ourselves for the next time it happens. That lets us off the hook doesn't it, ceding our responsibility as citizens to the powers that be. Or, from a spiritual perspective and having decided in our whole self to take ownership of the society in which we live, choose to want to do something about making it work by planting in ourselves the want to do something towards finding that long-term solution. With faith in ourselves and life we know that, because we want that want, we can do something towards making it happen.

So, yes I call myself non-judgmental, because I do all I can when I can, and take complete responsibility for the consequences of my thoughts words and actions... whether I like it or not!

The good news? I know in my heart that we are all doing all we can to make society work - it's an inbuilt human need. So no, I don't judge the judgers... we have to have the freedom to choose. How else will we find out what is really, really right?

Happy postings,
Pat

[ceinvests]

Hello All--

If I could join an honest class on this subject, my life would be improved.

I am in a confused spot in life because I could not dialogue honestly on this subject. I am happy you are here and hope that we can continue with this important subject.

My challenges in brief:

1. Judgemental people who put humans(souls) in a "box of knowing" change, alter, hinder, challenge their growth. ie Closed Judgementalism.
2. Judgement per male and female history, assumptions, comfort levels. ie The Patriarchy has been our recent HIS-Story. We need more balanced and female perspectives with wisdom on this subject. We need to differentiate between weak soft female and wise aware female discernment. One is sex driven, the other is Evolution driven.
3. The challenges that come from leaders must make healthy caring judgements of decisions but must remain open to being mentored and taking in understanding.
4. To lead is to judge. The best leaders must find ways to allow others to be seen as well. Gentler/More Balanced Leadership Styles.
5. The challenge today between the judgements of the past and the discernments of today. This, I feel, is important work that we have evolved into and must discuss to help clarify the differences. Different souls and humans will need to understand that this will look and feel different for different souls/people. ie. Diversity of Human Styles.

My challenge is that I am a very intuitive thinker. I feel my knowing in my mind= Wisdom.
I used to trust that was my best self. Now I fear being judgemental. This is unhealthy.

I now know that discernment needs to be part of this discussion because it is the energy that allows focus, knowing, following own path, and being a healthy human citizen. We take on roles that have responsibility. We need to redefine or define the difference between judgementalism and being discerning.

Enough from me today.
Namaste,
Ce
_________________
Searching Searcher

[truth]

Hi Ce,

Love your inclusion here of discernment, for me to discern is being able to choose what we really want from that we think we want, e.g. whenever there's real conflict in our lives (although we, for the most part aren't at war, it certainly feels like it when our core values conflict with our learnt beliefs) we face a choice - I really want to fit into that size twelve dress, but I could really use that piece of chocolate cake right now, this minute. How do we choose? Same with murder - I love my wife, but I can't bear to see her with another man. How do we choose? Usually we don't have time to think about it rationally, we just do what is best at the time, but afterwards, if we have gone against what we really wanted to do, we might think, I wish I had done... or I should have done... and that is when we get the opportunity to learn what it was in our true self that was guiding us in the direction we didn't take.

I'd also like to address the points you made:

1. Judgemental people who put humans(souls) in a "box of knowing" change, alter, hinder, challenge their growth. ie Closed Judgementalism.

I'm not convinced I've got your point right here, so please be brutally honest - I can take it. For me, me being judgmental has been a great trigger for self analysis - Rishi is spot on - whenever we judge, the form of our complaint reflects our own behaviour. E.g. whenever I say 'she's being selfish' I can now turn that around and ask myself 'what is it about this situation that makes me selfish?' - works a treat!

2. Judgement per male and female history, assumptions, comfort levels. ie The Patriarchy has been our recent HIS-Story. We need more balanced and female perspectives with wisdom on this subject. We need to differentiate between weak soft female and wise aware female discernment. One is sex driven, the other is Evolution driven.

I guess I'm the evolution driven... shame! Anyway, you've hit the nail on the head with comfort levels and moving out of the comfort zone is a scary place - see discernment. However, I have issues with the male female thing, because I find that, well, it's like the feminities and masculinities are human ingredients and we are all a different recipe of all the ingredients that make a human a human. So yes, whilst in general women have to manage their emotional baggage, men have their mental to contend with - only by wanting to work together do we find good, long-term solutions.

3. The challenges that come from leaders must make healthy caring judgements of decisions but must remain open to being mentored and taking in understanding.

Absolutely, my experience with leaders is that they crave honesty - when we're honest, straight from the heart, they are on our side 100%. They might not know why, but they sure like us being around.

4. To lead is to judge. The best leaders must find ways to allow others to be seen as well. Gentler/More Balanced Leadership Styles.

See three

5. The challenge today between the judgements of the past and the discernments of today. This, I feel, is important work that we have evolved into and must discuss to help clarify the differences. Different souls and humans will need to understand that this will look and feel different for different souls/people. ie. Diversity of Human Styles.

Hallelujah! The more who seek to find, the more will seek to find

Thank you guys, as ever I enjoyed getting my thoughts out there - brutal honesty is never brutal when delivered with good intentions.

[ceinvests]

Hi truth,
I added some clarification to your thoughts. Brutal Honesty is just honesty that either needs further discussion or dialogue, greater understanding or gentler delivery. Smile!

"I'd also like to address the points you made:

1. Judgemental people who put humans(souls) in a "box of knowing" change, alter, hinder, challenge their growth. ie Closed Judgementalism.

I'm not convinced I've got your point right here, so please be brutally honest - I can take it. For me, me being judgmental has been a great trigger for self analysis - Rishi is spot on - whenever we judge, the form of our complaint reflects our own behaviour. E.g. whenever I say 'she's being selfish' I can now turn that around and ask myself 'what is it about this situation that makes me selfish?' - works a treat!

==Yes, because you see yourself and others as evolving, you work with them in the moment and future. The past is a reference point. Many refer to past actions and behavior as 'who you are' and hold you rigidly to that. I am sure you use I statements and problem solving rationale when working out issues. Many decide you are the equal of who they perceived you to be and look for behaviors that support that belief. They hold people to that perception and treat them accordingly. This is a closed minded judgementalism problem that holds back growth. imho ==

2. Judgement per male and female history, assumptions, comfort levels. ie The Patriarchy has been our recent HIS-Story. We need more balanced and female perspectives with wisdom on this subject. We need to differentiate between weak soft female and wise aware female discernment. One is sex driven, the other is Evolution driven.

I guess I'm the evolution driven... shame! Anyway, you've hit the nail on the head with comfort levels and moving out of the comfort zone is a scary place - see discernment. However, I have issues with the male female thing, because I find that, well, it's like the feminities and masculinities are human ingredients and we are all a different recipe of all the ingredients that make a human a human. So yes, whilst in general women have to manage their emotional baggage, men have their mental to contend with - only by wanting to work together do we find good, long-term solutions.

==Exactly--and we must dialogue this truth more so that we see it clearer as a society. We will only get the importance of both by becoming more open to dialogue about balance, nature, emotional clarity, etc etc. Lets take down some of the stereotypes and dialogue about the natural strengths of both energies, etc without judgement. ==

3. The challenges that come from leaders must make healthy caring judgements of decisions but must remain open to being mentored and taking in understanding.

Absolutely, my experience with leaders is that they crave honesty - when we're honest, straight from the heart, they are on our side 100%. They might not know why, but they sure like us being around.
==Nice, you are fortunate and wise to feel that way.==

5. The challenge today between the judgements of the past and the discernments of today. This, I feel, is important work that we have evolved into and must discuss to help clarify the differences. Different souls and humans will need to understand that this will look and feel different for different souls/people. ie. Diversity of Human Styles.

Hallelujah! The more who seek to find, the more will seek to find

Thank you guys, as ever I enjoyed getting my thoughts out there - brutal honesty is never brutal when delivered with good intentions.[/quote]

==Me too, maybe we can have an online class about some of the differences and clarities.

Glimmers,
CE
_________________
Searching Searcher

[michellepetkus]

Hello Earthfather,

I think to a certain degree we have to take into account the fact that most people see judgment as a negative. I rather like Ce's use of the term discernment since it does not come with baggage like the word judgment does. So though in the true definition the word judgment is not necessarily a negative action most people would say that it is so in that respect I use it as a behavior that is used to condemn someone or something.

That being said you are right that we can't get around the use of it whether we use the term judgment or discernment. We do tend to evaluate our world and decide what we like and don't. If we didn't we wouldn't make any improvements so it does indeed serve a useful purpose.

But I rather think the bigger question might be why is life designed this way? Is it possible we are here so we can learn to live with the conditions in front of us no matter what? To learn how to move head improving life and the conditions we are under without condemning the way things are. I rather think our purpose in coming here is to learn to find a balance between progressing ourselves and accepting the conditions we are under no matter what they are. If we can become unconditonal about needing life to be any particular way then we truly open ourselves up to infinite possibilities.

Love,
Michelle

[SL]

Hello earthfather!

It's been a while since we chatted...

I have been reading the forum the last few weeks, seeing how everyone utilizes it. I have enjoyed it. Your question earthfather, as well as the responses from rishi, truth, ceinvests and michellepetkus I found to be something I had a response to personally, and so I offer the following thoughts.

When thinking about some of these concepts that are so often discussed among those who are sincerely and consciously living this physical life, it often proves helpful to start at the beginning. Where can we start? If we concern ourselves with 'truth' within, then we will naturally be concerned with 'truth' without. By that I mean, if one is driven by personality to be honest with one's self, then it will surely follow that one will be concerned with the honest 'truth' in the world we physically deal with as well.

So... I know a 'truth'. This 'truth' lies for me at the foundation of our observed universe. And that 'truth' is that we all are One.

The scientific evidence is there, if one is able or willing to see it. All matter springs from something they are now calling 'quantum foam', nothingness, in other words... The observable reality is that subatomic particles spring from nothing. They are attracted to one another to do the things they do with randomness, until intent is applied to them. The larger point is, there is no differentiation between the subatomic particles that make up 'dog' and the subatomic particles that make up 'you'. They interchange with one another sub-atomicly as the needs of the moment determine...

So for the purposes of this writing, there is no difference between myself and the rock outside of my door. Or anything else I can reach out and touch in this universe.....

That, of course would mean then, if I judge you, I am judging myself. And in the moment, that may be necessary. It may not. In that moment, well.... that is what we came for isn't it? To find out?

If we say, it is all One, then we are saying to one another, we are all One.

It does not always look like that does it? And it for sure does not feel like that.

The larger thrust of what seemed to be on your mind earthfather, when you wrote your post was, 'if I do not judge, then am I not giving tacit approval to unloving, even evil deeds?' Forgive me If I misinterpret what you mean by my paraphrase, but it is what struck me about what you wrote.

While I do understand that emotional reaction when confronted with something 'not right' I believe if we, as humans, collectively, had all been born into, and raised, in a society that was based on knowing, and understanding, that we are not all just connected, but (!) each one an integral part of the whole, this question would not be a question....

See, we kind of spin around one another by pointing at one another and saying things like, 'you wore blue today! don't you know violet is closer to god!?!' And we spin and we say these things and sometimes they make us laugh and sometimes they make us feel other things. This is life, as we have known it, as we have been taught it.

I personally will be glad, when we do not have to explain and reflect the implications of Oneness back to one another but rather live, completely free, completely in the moment, completely in the awareness that our experience is for us, by us, and about us, because we is all there is... we is.

This may seem simplistic for rishi, given his support of the scientific method. It may seem so, from that perspective. That perspective and the need that perspective requires to organize - information, budgets, family activities, war machines all of these details of life require certain things. They require logic, what they also require is a stability, so that the adjectives used to describe objects or behavior remain consistent. What we all recognize on some level then is that while objects remain consistent (unless they move faster than the speed of light, oh! and also at the subatomic level...) in their behavior, behavior, on the other hand, in animals and humans, does not remain consistent. What we have in our society is a foundation on the scientific method of looking at the world, which works really well when classifying things in nature, when building nifty devices to make our lives easier... but to determine the quantitative as well as qualitative value of a human being? To determine for another what the 'best' course of action may be?

Right now, all around the world we are seeing the end result of well over a hundred years of logical, mathematical systems at work. The result of that much time, energy and focus put on structuring society in a 'scientific' fashion is that we have arrived at what mathematicians name as a 'tipping point'. Oddly enough, this mathematics has been known for nearly one hundred thirty years. There is a point in any system put out into the physical universe where chaos ensues, where structures do not behave predictably, they take on unpredictable characteristics.

The admonishments and teachings of all the old masters and all of the secret societies for the last few thousands of years appear to be true, it is all one, we are all different facets that contain the whole of reality, each within Self.

That conclusion may seem like too large of a leap for some people, I will admit there are many perspectives one can go thru between talking about non-judgementalism and the underlying nature of the universe. But (!)... if we were to be truly honest about where we have come from, if we were to consider that everything we think we know from history, and recognize that all of that experience that billions of people have made over the years... was based on a false model of the universe. And if we did that, wouldn't we then see that all ideas, about the practical matter of someone doing something 'harmful' for all to see, for example, were based on misconceptions? That maybe there is indeed an alternative route through life than what we collectively have observed repeating in our humanity?

I meditate upon the never-ending manifestation of Intent, I ponder the healing of a cut in my skin. So many things are happening all around us, and intent is there to observe... you do want your cuts to heal do you not? But when and as they do, how much of your focus and intention is actually going there? For myself, I hardly think of those things at all. I pay attention to experience. From these observations, it is clear that for all of what we can observe, there is personality behind it. We each have a personality and from this perspective, it seems absurd not to believe that even though it may be an impersonal universe, there is clearly personality. Where does the Intent come from for any of this? I do not have to believe in God to wonder about these things. "God" as people tend to use the expression, is a fiction. But that may be all there is to it... if the Quantum Foam is manifesting all of us, there is something driving it... we all here experience synchronicity... this is observable. If we are to become a truly conscious species on the planet, then we have to start to come to grips with what we know about our reality implies, about the 'truth' in our collective experience. Then, the truly 'responsible' thing to do would be to let our society reflect what we now know about our reality.

For myself, while I apply logic (obviously my own) to my day to day activities, what I have learned on a personal level is this, the more detached from my need to have an opinion - about a person, an event, a feeling of my own - the more perceptive I feel about those same things. And not just that, I am more at peace with it all. And not just, not just that, I see myself in more and more of the world. I also find that it is easier to determine what my heart is pointing me towards. And in that sense, I feel that I kind of get to where I am going quicker, if y'all know what i mean.

If we are all One, why can we not let go of this incessant need to separate ourselves from one another, when it is painfully and obviously clear that we are all leading lives that are unique to ourselves... and that, for the benefit of one another. If, in this consciousness, we can begin to truly see ourself in whomever we let our gaze rest upon, then we may indeed begin to live lives in harmony with one another.

The original posting from earthfather was about the question of judgementalism vs. non-judgementalism. My point to this question is that this subject, and any other subjects of debate about human interaction can be resolved from this perspective, that of Oneness, responsibly.

Peace
Steve

[Ima Pilgrim]

That was wonderfully said SL

[Water Master]

Hi guys

Imho dont you guys waffle on to much?

"you shouldnt judge others"

"im non judgemental"

its simple "only judge yourself"

listen ill help alittle

1.who gave you power?
2.were the ppl in question aware of giving you this power?
3.if like me "you dont realy exist"
4.beauty in every face : ) wow a mirror lol

[truth]

Hi Water Master,

You said, "Imho dont you guys waffle on to much?"

Playful? Mischievous? Dare I say, judgemental?

Who knows!

Thank you for reminding me not to take life too seriously... it's been a long time coming.

Pat

[Water Master]

hi truth

yes indeed to all the above : )

on whos part to dare to say judgemental-a simple question from a simple person.

if i was judgemental then i would say "you guys waffle on to much" would i not?

and yes not important have a laugh-and a beer if you wish life is to short.