dealing with Religious family members...?

[Reverend Loush]

um ok lets take first things first! you as with most people greatly misunderstand the true christan concept of hell! the word hell in the old testament is sheol literally meaning the grave and it is not refering to the afterlife but the gateway to the after life and not the only gateway as they believed that at least one prophet went to heaven in physical form not ever having died! in the new testament the two words are gehenna and hades! now gehenna was an actual place a valley outside of jerusalem where they would pile all the refuse, waste, trash, and gentile corpses and douse everything in oil and set the whole valley on fire which is where we get the image of the lake of fire! the apostels were using a metaphore speaking of the torture of the fire of the mind at being seperated from God, which is what hell means "being seperated from God", and we beleive this happens because a person chooses for it to happen! and before you make the comment "well who would choose that; no one?!:" let me assure you that there are those would conciously choose that, i have met them and talked with them, all had their own reasons! the other word hades is the name of the underworld in greco-roman mythology and it again was a metaphore for being seperated from the light! again by choice! though there is much i disagree with about roman catholocism, there is also much to be said in its favor! beautiful ritual, devotion, nuns and monks who live just in the service of God, preist who live in service to the church, and even though they destroyed much history, they also saved much history! so i won't be bashing catholcism today! i am neither protestant or roman catholic! i am christian, a celtic christian mystic, called celide'! the actual word catholic means the church universal so in that sense i am catholic! the word protestant means to protest so in that sense i am protestant! so you had a different interpritation of God as a small child than your church did! ok well, and so what? every human being on this planet has a different interpritation of God and scripture than eachother! no two people are completly the same on everything! people got struck down dead for being hasty or just plain stuborn! like when he told people only these preparted men can touch the arc of the covenant and then the silly people went and touched it anyway! that wasn't a judgement! God said don't do it beause it will hurt you! he warned them out of love like a parent is suppose to do! in fact all of the rules or laws were for the peoples own good, not to be mean to them but because he loved them so very much indeed! being born a sinner does not stop us from reaching enlightenment! there is no doom save what we choose for ourselves! and rightly so! we are all born sinners, but are we going to let this stop us or weigh us down thereby condiming ourselves, or will we rise to the occasion and pass the tests that life puts us through and do what we were put here to do!? why does it not seem fair at the end of life before it is too late and death takes us that we can realize the error of our ways before we die and apologize? it seems more than fair but down right merciful to me, and i am gald and thankful for it! i am sorry you don't see it that way, but as for being fair to us, i don't really think about it being about us but rather about the person who is passing and the chance for them to take a life review before they pass instead of after which probably makes their passing more gentle in the process on the other side! the bible does not say there is only one life that is modern interpritation of the phrase "a mans days are short upon the earth"; well each lifetime is short in the scheme of things, and the bible does speak of reincarnation! "and Christ spoke to the apostles saying tell me what is one of the signs that the messiah will return? and they answered elijah will come back, and Christ answered them saying what if i told you that he did come back and no one recognized him, and immediatly they knew he was reffering to Jhon the baptist"! now there are other forms of catholocism that you aren't speaking of! for instance there is the orthadox catholic church which ordaines women and in some cases has even allowed same sex marriage, and the preists/preistesses, nuns, and monks practice reiki sometimes! then there is the irish catholic church which is very open and mystical indeed seeming somewhat like druidism! so i hope that clarifies my points! to michelle thanks so much for what you said! i do understand and i think you are right in your assasment! to anthony; i am sorry, i have been so emotional as of late and take things to personally, i really didn't mean to come across as angry as i did! it is just that lately i feel as though i have had to become THE DEFENDER OF THE FAITH.........this is silly i know as the truth does not need me or anyone to really defend it! but i have been attacked much lately for my religion! by both people in my religion for simply having a different perspective of it, and by outsiders who don't understand the truth of what my religion teaches but only see the bad modern interpritations of my faith! so i wish you well anthony and i hope that there will eventually be a peace between you and your sister! love is the answer don't forget! and to theressa.......i am a reiki master teacher and i would like to thank you for your imput, as reiki and the celestine prophecy changed my life! and your are right! we can't change others only ourselves, and can't contol other peoples actions only our actions and reactions! even reiki masters need reminding! so thank you all!

blessed be!

L
_________________
Rev. Loush O'Raven

Blessed be most excellent!

[Theressa]

Hello Rev. Loush O'Raven,



I found your post very interesting and inspiring. I agree with you when you say everyone has their own interpretation. I also think that some of us were turned away from organised religion because of bad experiences at an early age. An age when perhaps we did not get chance to really study the religion. I learnt alot when I studied social science. I think also there are many roads to rome. I do not think their is only one way to praise God or worship God.



I am sorry you are feeling others are challenging you alot. I think some of it is because of the extremists in the world. Those who bombed the twin towers etc. I think however, that those guys taught me alot. First of all about how people react when they feel separate, the them and us thinking. It reflects how far we've distanced ourselves from GOD.



I think GOD sends souls such as these and even Hitler to show us our collective consciousness. I even think that mother nature which is the female aspect of GOD I think, is trying to wake us up to how we are treating her. The Tsunami, the earthquakes etc.



I have a friend who is 80 years old and she is part of the healing circle I belong to, she said to me the other week. "so now you believe in GOD, I said no, now I feel I have my own experience of GOD, my own understanding and not just what was passed down to me." You see my friend thinks that unless I believe exactly the same as she does and attend church that I mustn't really believe in GOD. So Rev. Loush O'Raven I agree with you when you say that Anthony's sister may believe differently but not necessarily wrongly for her.



Isn't it said that we each are exactly where we are meant to be for our growth, then in that case Anthony's sister is in the right place, from the her own spiritual perspective.



Just imagine if we all tolerated more and accept each others differing perspectives? John Lennon's song comes to mind, "Imagine all the people living as one".



Rev. Loush O'Raven I think what puts me off organised religion is the Irish. The fighting, the troubles and I bet most everyday folk don't even know what its all about. My nan was 90 years old and Irish and she said "its men, not GOD that misinterpret things and then fight". I think she was right. I also believe the same as you said that some times people blame GOD for things that men do, because GOD's an easy target, because he/she doesn't defend.



One thing I don't agree with is that humans are born sinners. I think we are inheriantly good/love and are spiritual beings here having a human experience to express GOD. I think duality is needed to help us, such as black and white, Good and bad, but its all relative. I think its conditioning that causes us to be a certain way. I think this is so we/God can experience all the facets of life. I think Carl Rogers humanistic theory is good.



I think we are intrinsically good. I really liked what the poster said about owning your beliefs. Rev. Loush O'Raven I think with people like you who seem to explain more about organised religion than anyone ever has to me, I can begin to be more accepting.



I would like to thank you for explain what hell means, I think I read this also in the Conversations with GOD Triology. I like your direct approach. I think you are passionate and that is good.



I think also that people expect you to be perfect because you are a rev. well you are a human being as well. Its like Princess Diana everyone criticised her but I thought she sounded lovely. I bought a book she was meant to have written in through someone in the afterlife. She talks about peace and love.



Blessings, I hope we can talk some more, I'd like to hear more about your beliefs, they are very interesting to me.



Blessings

Theressa

[Anthony79]

Yes, thank you Rev. Loush for providing such insightful details on the ins and outs of christianity. So knowing that, why are so many christians sold on the idea of Heaven and Hell as places you go when you die based on the idea of what you choose to do and believe in during your time on earth ?? You said Hell was a mindset basically, a separation from God so to speak. Those who are not connected with that source are considered "living a hell on earth". The book "The Four Agreements" talks about this, for those who have never read it, I highly recommend it.



I just think the ideas that were presented to me about Christianity as a young person, and even today by many are so different than what you described Reverand. The Christians I know are almost cult-like in the things they do...i.e. only hanging out with other christians, looking down on those who dont believe what they do etc. So the ideas you described from the old testament, are the ones that helped me the most. So knowing that, why are there not more Christians searching for the real truth, rather than the "truth" that the modern day churches teach?? Is it not true that churches have skewed the meaning of christianity?? Based on what the Rev. said, I think that they have because this is the first time I have ever heard these things. I have only heard about serving god, only doing what he wants, thinking pure thoughts, living a life worshiping the lord etc. And if these things were not done, you basically spent the rest of eternity burning in hell with the rest of the sinners. And to me, it sounded very fear based, because it literally put the fear of god into you, as a judging tyrant who would strike down on you if you didn't act how he wanted. At least now, I have a little more understanding of the true meaning of certain things. I just wish the Christians that I have come to know, would be a little more open minded and try a little harder to understand the different views of others. Because as we have come to realize with these discussions, we all when it comes down to it, pretty much believe the same thing. It is just a different interpretation for everyone.



I don't know if I will ever fully believe in the "God in the sky" theory, but at least I can understand how someone else could. I believe in god as a force, a vast sea of energy that engulfs all people and all things simultaneously. For some of us, finding, connecting to, and embracing that force has become more important than it has to others. For me, I am learning that the force we call "God" IS all knowing and pure love. And when we can learn to let go and trust in this force, things that we dream about CAN happen. And if this were to happen on a global level....if only for a day or two, I truly believe some amazing things would happen. That is my dream at least, and if YOU share the same dream as I do....make it your goal to act out of kindness and love to others you come across. Who knows, it may have a domino effect that could go on and on and on.....then we have accomplished something !!!!



Anthony

[Theressa]

Hi Anthony, Hi Rev,



I think it is amazing that we are having these discussions. I think it will help us to learn that All truths are true, all are equal and valuable. We may be come a little more tolerant. Also, maybe the universe is now seeing more people like you Rev who are searching for the true meanings more. I was knocked out when I visited this website http://www.bashar.org/HOMEMAIN.html that another poster on this website let others know about. To think that everything out there is a reflection of me, my light or parts of me that I have hidden is amazing.



For me the pope is hard to grasp. He says love all men and women but he doesn't allow this love to extend to gay people. Aren't gay people souls?? Isn't this not loving every aspect/facet of GOD??



Blessings

Theressa





Sometimes its all so complicated because of people's lack of understanding and then they don't explain in a way that others understandand so the confussion goes on, and on....

[Reverend Loush]

thank you both! let me clarify some other things further! when i say we are "born sinners" what i mean is that we are all born with the capacity for good or evil! i do think that we were created good and are inherintly good! so i guess i should put it like this! i think we are born good "and God looked at his creation and saw that it was good", but that we have the power of choice and we can choose to not be good if we want to! i think of evil as a void..........so i guess one could say i think we are born half full, and it is up to us to choose to fill the other half or to let what is in us drain out hahahahaha! the fear of God is not really fear as i have said but rather ultamit love and respect! this is a translation issue with the hebrew to english! i think people do live in a hell or a purgatory on earth! now while i do believe that hell can be a place.......it is the mindset that is important not the construct..........this is shown in the tenth insight! and dear therassa.......as an irishman i know what you mean hahahahaha.........but don't forget that my ancestors had deep spiritual understanding and respect..........untill we became too catholic and started drinking hahahahahahaahaha! on the veiw of heaven and hell as a place.........well we all know that it is easy to turn metaphore into gospel.........i would argue that it is the place where you are when you are in that mindset.........so as i said in that sense it is a place! the modern day church is just silly at times............that is what happens when we forget! i also think it is amazing and yet time that we have these conversations! i am truly greatful to all of you! yall complete me hahahaha; no really yall grace me, and bless me with these conversations.........it gives me great hope that one day there can be tolerance! i am fixing to have to go to war with the public library in my city because they have banned all books on paganism and alternative religions! send me reiki i will need it! also i am having health problems and need reiki for them too! i went to try and leave flyers about a new reiki share we are going to start up at the library and they informed me that no one can leave spirituality flyers anymore! intolerance is on the rise but i am going to meet it head on.........i just need to remember to do it in love! so send me prayer for that too would you? thanks.......i will remember to try and pay it forward!



blessed be!

L
_________________
Rev. Loush O'Raven

Blessed be most excellent!

[michellepetkus]

Hi Anthony,



I think we went to the same church. I have had some of the same thoughts and feelings as you. I didn?t start out judgmental about the church. I was mostly just skeptical. But there was a time when I did resent the misinterpretations and the harm they caused with their fear and guilt sermons. But over time as I?ve worked on letting go of my judgments I have come to peace with them and the world. I guess I have been lucky in that I haven?t really had a lot of judgmental people in my life trying to tell me what to do. I know it can?t be easy when someone is badgering you trying to force you to live by their rules. But maybe this will help. No matter what anyone says or does you have the choice whether you let it bug you or not. That is your power. Trust in and embrace your beliefs. That is where your strength lies. Overtime as you learn to live the insights you will find you too are judging less. Acknowledgement is the first step. Practicing to break those old negative habits is the challenge. It will take time. We are trying to unlearn lifetimes of negative thought patterns and behaviors. But little by little you will see them fade away and one day you will wake up and realize your sister has no power over you anymore. And you may actually start to see, though a little misguided in her approach, your sister really did just have your best interests at heart. She just went about it in a negative way.



Your friend in the quest to follow in Jesus? footsteps,

Michelle

[michellepetkus]

Dear Reverend,



I have to say I am absolutely beside myself with excitement to have met you. I too, like Anthony, was handed a God that was judgmental and vindictive. But I always knew the truth was out there somewhere. That?s why I took the religion class and chose Christianity as a subject to write about. I wanted to learn about it from a more objective standpoint. I was really unsuccessful at getting at the whole truth as I couldn?t really find any good books that weren?t slanted toward what I?ll call as the traditional interpretations. I thought about and tried to read the Bible to figure it out on my own but I have to say that it is quite heady. It seems more like prose to me than fables to be passed down from generation to generation. Maybe people talked like that back when it was written and they understood what it said but it feels to me like you are going around in circles when you try to read it. But I absolutely embrace your interpretations. Of the couple you have written I?ve gotten that, ?yes, that?s it, that makes sense to me,? feeling. I had no idea that hell was based on an actual place albeit a dump site. But the burning of the bodies is very symbolic and I can see how it could be used as a metaphor. I really look forward to hearing more of your interpretations of the classic scriptures. Maybe you might want to think about putting it all down in a book to share with the world, hint, hint. Or maybe there is already a book out there that you can recommend. In any event, I think your calling in life may very well be to help Christianity transition into a more objective loving religion. The way Jesus intended it to be. I do hope that whatever health problems you are having are healed. We are all blessed to have your knowledge and insight into religion as a part of this site.



Gratefully Yours,

Michelle

[Reverend Loush]

thank you so very much! you have touched me more than words can say! i am writing several books........i have been working on them for years and i feel it will be many more before they are finished hahahaaha! by the time i get through no one will want to read them because it will all be known hahahahaha! but that would be ok with me too! i think also........and i will leave it to someone else to start and i will respond to it hahaha........i think also we should take a look at the scriptual veiws and words for heaven, eden, paradise, abrahams boosem, and the new jerusalem! ok this should be a good discussion ...........on your marks get set .............go.........hahahahaha! maybe we could also explore the ideas of the bottamless pitt, the guff (hall of souls), and the great casam! now these are truly interesting subjects to sink ones teeth into hahahahaahhahah! and the reality is far from what most people think! also the idea of the rapture has taken on new hights of silliness and doom, and so has the teachings of the anti christ! the politcal anti christ already came in the person of nero..........so what we have now is the spirit of the anti christ which is held by many people who are lost and not making the connection! i think they just need help! so what do yall think? i do think it is part of my role here to help transform my religion into what it was intended to be istead of what it has saddly become now! i think there are many more like me out there trying to do the same thing.............i just wish i could find them and join their church hahahahahaaha! thanks for the prayers......i need them!

bb

L
_________________
Rev. Loush O'Raven

Blessed be most excellent!

[michellepetkus]

Hi Reverend,



I meant every word I said. I wouldn't worry too much about writing on a subject that has been written before. I really don't think there is anything out there right now and even if it does become known as you suspect there will always be someone new who is looking to learn. I really look forward to reading them if you can get them written. No pressure though. I know writing a whole book can probably be very daunting and difficult to achieve. Having you here though I'm sure will be a blessing for me in the least.



Boy, you are kind of stumping me on your subjects. I don't really know much about any of them. I think Heaven is really just the afterlife. We go there and come back to eventually stay there when we've achieved full enlightenment. I think Eden represents Heaven and through our impulse to make negative choices we have been cast out, so to speak, until we learn to make positive choices from free will. Meaning once we have achieved enlightenment we will make positive choices because we want to not because we feel obligated to or because we feel we should. As for the scriptures description of them I really don't know because I probably just stopped listening in class when I felt like I was being miss led. I would love to hear your understandings of them though.



Michelle

[Theressa]

Hi Rev,



I am tired and need to go to bed now, I get so engaged here when I have time on my own. My partner is not here and neither is my daughter so its me time but I get so engrossed in discussion and its 1.18am now so I best go soon.



But, I just have one comment to make and will read the posts more fully tomorrow, or today since its is already tomorrow (monday here),



Any book you come up with will be unique because only you can write it from your perspective.



As for feeling not too well, what's the lesson? What's the message? maybe you need to acknowledge the blessing you are??? The Reiki I will send you when I've had some sleep. But, the universe will make sure whatever happens it makes you an improved version once you become well again, urm so maybe illness with insight isn't so bad after all. As for the discussions I hope we can all learn more.



Do you think James Redfield would mind, oh well, we'll see because I'll start it.



Much love

Theressa

[robin snyder]

Hello all



I am reading a book titled "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris. It is an incredible analysis of the clash between reason and religion. I recommend it to anyone. Many other solid theological works are available as well. Even a brief study of the history of Christianity and it?s precursors, brings many challenges to the Bibles? authenticity and of it?s being any kind of reasonable doctrine for who,what,why,where, we are. In fact it is largely a hodge-podge of pagan and other religions pasted together in a sort of haphazard way. It doesn?t hold up to any kind of reasonable logic. I am continuously stunned at people?s willingness to buy into it. Furthermore there is not even any clear evidence that Jesus ever existed. I am of the opinion that to believe in any kind of personification of GOD/Divine Being is absolutely without merit and a failure of critical thinking. Does this sound harsh? Am I involved in my own control drama? Am I angry and feeling superior? Maybe so, but IT DOES NOT MATTER. What does matter is that if you are caught up in Christianity, RUN AWAY. Do not take my word for it. Get those books and/or talk to a de-programmer. You will thank me.



I do not usually engage in discussion of biblical scripture anymore since I find it to be tedious, and the counter point to be berift of any factual basis or merit. And yes, also because I get angry every time I think about the many atrocities committed in God?s name. (By the way I am well aware that this is not a phenomenon limited to the Christians). However, some of the quotes I saw in an earlier post were from the Old Testament which reminds me of Leviticus, which is also Old Testament. It says we should kill gays and our own children if we denounce the Holy Spirit. I guess the Jewish GOD was a little harsher than the post Jesus teachings. But then again, that reminds me that the Crusades and the European empires were virtually all built on the doctrine of Divine Right. One last observation on scripture; even the church itself can?t agree on interpretation. The original Jewish religion doesn?t even recognize the New Testament. The original Catholic Church has been divided into so many denominations (Lutheran, Methodist, Church of latter day saints, Pentecostal Baptist etc.) that I doubt any one Christian could recite them all. Some splits were political in nature however, most were simply disagreements over the meaning of the so called word of God. All in all this makes a pretty solid case for the scripture being divisive as opposed to inclusive. In fact this has become a sort of litmus test for me. If an idelology is inclusive then it is spiritual. If it is divisive then it is religious.



This happens on a small level as well, which leads me finally to my relevant story to the original post. Recently, my wife and I have been shunned by my beloved nephew/son and his wife. They are fundamentalists and voted for Bush because he is a Christian doesn?t kill babies. One issue ?two votes. (My condensed thought on that subject is ? what are babies when they grow up? Soldiers! I can provide lots of evidence that we are killing lots of them, as well as civilians. I also can demonstrate a direct connection between voting for these Christian politicians and in effect killing people via the war to force oil prices up. Obivously this has led to some very difering opinons about what is right and wrong. Since the "election" we have suffered a ten thousand pound elephant in the room. They have a three year old son. they are currently undergoing the process of indoctrinating/brainwashing him. Ironically they stay away from us because of their concern that we will try to sway the child from the Church. It is ironic because I do not believe in teaching children about any kind of religion or spirituality unless they pursue it. Furthermore, it is biologically unlikely they will pursue (or question) such high minded ideas before their early teens, because they don?t even mylinate their synapses for abstract thought, until nine years of age or so.



Someone made the point that all religious points of view are equal. I disagree. I think that every body?s truth is the truth, but not everybody?s truth fits the facts. That is the point I am trying to make here. To apply critical thinking is one of the most important acts any one can make. To ask the hard questions even if it goes against the beliefs of your family, friends, goverenment, and religion, is the brave choice. The lack of it can, and has, led to enslavement of countless individuals, cultures and the total destruction of many others. This is not fantasy, this is observation. Why am I upset? Because it doesn?t have to be this way. There is no lack of enlightened information available. Also, there is no reason to assume that the magical, mysterious nature of the universe ceases with information and challenge. In fact the opposite is true. The facts lead one to the working theory that the universe works pretty close to what Mr. Redfield has laid out in his fiction. Consciousness is the fundamental universal and the material manifestations are the epiphenomenon. Of course classical physics and materialism state the opposite.



I am fifty years of age, creative, smart, loving, and say with out equivocation that I have experienced enlightenment, numinous experiences, states of grace, synchronicities, clock phenomenon, lucid dreaming, OBE, remote viewing, physic functioning, precognitive dreams, etc. I have explored various forms of meditation. I recently discovered that I have taken three of the Buddhists paths to enlightenment. I have personally verified most of Edgar Casey?s dream experiences. I cite this list not because I am an egomanic or think I?m cool, rather simply to illustrate that no GOD was necessary for any of this to occur. The Christian doctrine denies my experiences as valid because I have not accepted Christ as my savior of worse- denied the Holy Spirit. A wise man once said that extraordinary circumstances demand extraordinary proof. The burden of proof should be on the religious believers to make their case yet they do not usually feel obliged. Why? Because the elite indoctrinates us as children to believe in this nonsense to control us. (Now THAT's a control drama). When we get old enough to challenge the ideas, we have to break through the conditioning. Most of us do not. (related food for thought ? out of all the things we are ?taught? ? Washington and the Cherry tree, Lincoln and the cabin, the Easter bunny, Santa Clause etc, which are all untrue, why does Jesus raising from the dead, the virgin birth, etc. survive? There is no more evidence for the latter then the former.



The above (OK, you?re right) rant, expresses just a few of my problems with Christianity and organized religion in general. I assure you this is just the tip of the burg and there are many wise people that have done wonderful work on the subject. If you are offended by my views, please don?t let that stop you from accepting my challenge, if your lord is truth then your search can only give you evidence for your belief.



Over the last three decades I have poured over most -ologies and -osophies as well as the paranormal and fringe sciences. For all my explorations I do not have many answers. I still have lots of questions. A few things have been part of my working theory for decades, which is about as close to ultimate fact as I care to come. As far as Christianity is concerned, I have outlined a few of these below:



(1)Christianity is a pox on humanity and it is provable.



(2)Christianity is NOT required for ethics. I haven?t needed sto be spanked for being bad, or been given candy for being good, since I was a child. My ethics are derived from simply observing that we are all one being.



(3)A GOD personified is no more provable or desirable than the Easter bunny. (Though one could make a case that at least the bunny gives you candy and the priest only gives you crackers).



(4)We will die. One of two things will occur. We cease to be (and I will get some much needed sleep). Or, we continue in some form. Either way I am good to go.



If I am wrong about GOD personified and I meet him on the other side (or tonight in my dreams even) then I view it like this. OK you say you are my LORD, my GOD. I am to WORSHIP you. I have been bad or good and will be punished or rewarded accordingly.

I will still deny this GOD's soveriegnty over me. Why, because it is akin to slavery. I think the only thing sadder than being enslaved is to be a slave and worship your master. I know this is a simplified and one dimensional interpretation of this supposed meeting, but it actually is pretty close to some of the interpretations I have heard in Church.



To close ?If one person is inspired by my words to question their belief in the church, either because they find something in the text that makes sense to them, or they are just angered into action then this was not just a waist of our time.



To Peace, love, and Critical Thinking,



Robin
_________________
go to broadjam.com -search my name(robin snyder) and check out some of my music. It's free!

[michellepetkus]

Hello Robin,



You are obviously a very well read intelligent individual. I cannot debate you on your topics because quite frankly I have not done the research and study you have. My only concern is that you may be throwing the baby out with the bath water. I don't think religion, or anything for that matter, is inherently bad. In general I think the original intent of all religions was to teach and guide people on how to be good. They may be a little misguided in their approach but their intent has always been to make the world a better place. But attacking religion, people, or anything for that matter only creates walls of negativity and resentment. I'm not saying that any religion that is working from thousands of years of doctrine will or even can change but by attacking them you are denying them the opportunity to grow to their fullest potential. If they can't change and grow with humanity's spiritual development then they will one day cease to exist. Until then we have to give them the opportunity and the benefit of the doubt that they will grow with the changing times.



Michelle

[robin snyder]

Dear Michelle,



You seem to have missed my point. Let me simply state it. Opinions based on no evidence are not only worthless but potentially dangerous. To illustrate further; you say ?I don't think religion, or anything for that matter, is inherently bad. In general I think the original intent of all religions was to teach and guide people on how to be good. They may be a little misguided in their approach but their intent has always been to make the world a better place.? You seem to be a nice person, and that is a nice sentiment, however, you make a sweeping statement which is absolutely without merit. I do not say this because I am a mean person or want to hurt your feelings. I say it because virtually all credible evidence shows that Christianity was created to perform the exact opposite function. It was, and is, about control. Mystics have never been well received in agrarian culture. They are usually ostracized, and if they become too much of a threat to the powers-that-be, they are removed or killed. You will recall that Jesus was killed. Then they manipulate the followers and the doctrines to their own ends. Also, I can assure you there is nothing misguided about how Christianity was formed or for what purpose. I am a bit frustrated because I can not possibly communicate everything I wish I could, within the context of this forum, which is why I suggested that you read ?The End of Faith.? Exploring just that one book, should be enough to illustrate the facts pertinent to this subject.



You also added ?by attacking them you are denying them the opportunity to grow to their fullest potential.? I am very dis-heartened that you perceive what I wrote as anything other then a defense against centuries worth of attacks by the Church. I thought I made it clear that they are attacking in every way, from the most insidious, i.e. brain-washing our dependant children, to the current sanctioning of out and out bombing of civilians (collateral damage). Surely you do not defend this? I am not attacking Christians. I agree that most of them mean well. However, meaning well and doing well can be two different things. And if people end up dead because of your beliefs then I think it is time to take a good long critical look in the mirror.



In regards to my attacking religion, people, or anything for that matter creating walls of negativity and resentment all I can say is this. You are focusing on my method not my message. Negativity is not a bad thing. Sometime it is the only right thing. It is the flip side of the coin. To put it in spiritual terms -Yin/Yang. In physics ? polarity, in mathematics ? chaos theory. I can not state it strongly enough. Christianity is not a good thing and it is provable. As long as we continue to respect it?s validity we will be enslaved by it.



And finally you said, ?We have to give them the opportunity and the benefit of the doubt (so) that they will grow with the changing times.? This is another perfect example to illustrate my point. We are way past the point of giving them any benefit of the doubt. The jury has been in for hundreds of years. If people took advantage of the information that exists and applied even the most basic tenants of logic, common sense. and critical thinking, we would not even be discussing Christianity except as an example of the atrocities that can occur when there is a failure of such thinking and examination.



Please do not take this dialog as a personal attack. I think it is great you have such a clear misunderstanding of what I was trying to communicate. It helps me to clarify and hopefuly help you to get what I am saying. As I said before, if you or anyone else are inspired to explore further, then I have not wasted our time.



LOL



Robin
_________________
go to broadjam.com -search my name(robin snyder) and check out some of my music. It's free!

[Theressa]

Hi Robin,



I have read your posts.



I do not belong to any organised religion. I believe in cause and effect. I also, however believe in the power of meditation and Reiki. I do not take the bible literal. I believe our energy system - the universe is alive however.



Life has fantasy/fiction and facts. However, as the scientists will confirm the world view keeps changing. Also, people are quite able to manipulate anything or anyone , sales people and politicians do so everyday.



I believe we have six senses.



I understand also the many bad outcomes that have resulted with belief systems, words and actions. You have made me think however, about the impact of voting for certain polictical parties.



I welcome different points of view. Could you illustrate some more of your views. I do not have the time to read the books you suggest right now.



But thank you for sharing your perspective.



Regards

Theressa

[michellepetkus]

Dear Robin,



Feel free to talk as openly as you like. I don't at all feel as though you have offended me or attacked me in any way. You are trying to make a point and I really do get that. I also think your points are quite valid and you've made new points that I didn't know. I may very well buy the book you mentioned as it does sound quite interesting. But I still stand behind my opinion that you may have inadvertently helped me to clarify. Whether you believe your points are noble or not it is your method that creates a stalemate in the healing process. I'll put it to you this way. If a person walks up to another person and tells them that they are bad, no good, and worthless wouldn't it stand to reason that the attacked person would get defensive and shut down? Well the same principles apply to organizations. Maybe you are right that religions came about through deception as a means to control and abuse people but those people who committed those sins are long gone and I truly believe that those in their place now truly intend to bring about what they perceive to be their ideal of a better world. Yes, certain people within the church may manipulate the scriptures to suit their needs. But in some respects their thinking is in line with your thinking. They believe the only way to get people to be good is to control them by bringing about fear and guilt. So your method of attacking them is counterproductive to your quest to bring about change because it really just recreates the atmosphere you so wish to eliminate in the first place. If, as you state, negativity can be a useful tool then you just reinforce their belief that they are actually justified in their actions because they feel that the ends justifies their means. I am here to state that it doesn't have to be that way. You make your stand against them by not standing with them. As more and more people learn and evolve they too will want to break away from the control people have on them. It is at that point that the church will have to change their ways/methods or they will cease to exist. But I do think the fact that Christianity has so many denominations just proves that it is trying to change and grow with our spiritual evolution. And I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt that they can achieve a more healthy interactive religion where all involved are accountable for their own actions. So I do get your point. But for your theory, ?negativity can sometimes be the only way,? to be valid would mean that you also condone a superior being judging others actions as wrong otherwise you wouldn?t be judging them so harshly. You are obviously a very kind caring soul or the sins of others wouldn't affect you so deeply as to cause you to try and run out and protect the defenseless. Your intentions are very noble but I just personally don't think two wrongs make a right. I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water because I do believe religion can have a positive impact on this world if they are led by positive individuals working from a positive perspective. So my issue is not with your points. It is unfortunate that some people misuse their power and in turn hurt others but your method just continues the cycle of negativity. As strange as it may sound I am not an idealist, I am a realist because I truly believe that our ultimate goal is to evolve into a cooperative life force where all parties involved work for the benefit of all concerned and I don't believe negativity, in any way shape or form, fits into that equation.



Sincerely,

Michelle