dealing with Religious family members...?

Anthony79 · Joined: 04 Apr 2006 Posts: 4 Location: Phoenix, AZ

As with all of you, I have found my own spiritual path. I believe in the universal god force with everything that I am, and I look forward to exploring the higher energies of this world and seeing what we can really become as a humanity. I think it will be truly amazing when and if we can have a collective mentality that agrees with this god force, as opposed to working against it.....a product of societal conditioning unfortunately. As has been said earlier, the critical mass is so important in order to have a paradigm shift. The emphasis for SO long has been that we are more important and seperate from the others around us. The competition amongst ourselves and the need to "be right " mentality that we engage in every day without even realizing why we are doing it, will be the destruction of this planet if we do not change the way we think. Along those lines, id like to talk about the separateness attitude that is so prominent in our world. I will start with religion...

How is one supposed to deal with the idea of religion..i.e. christianity. Personally, I think Jesus was a great man, and during his time was able to achieve a state of consciousness that we can ALL achieve !! When he did this, eventually people in his environment called him a "God". Every culture had their own "god", so people surrendered to the idea that these gods were created by something outside themselves.....thus re-enforcing the idea of separateness. My sister is a strong christian and is always telling me "god has a plan for you!" I want to be respectful, but I also want her to know that what she believes is only scratching the surface of what is really going on !! How am I supposed to deal with the non sense they tell me ?? How can these people be so closed minded and brain washed into the idea that there is this god in the sky listening to all their prayers and judging them every minute of the day !? That is ridiculous ! I believe it is all fear based and more conditional love than anything else. Whereas, the ideas from the celestine prophecy focus on love, intuition, and trusting the power that created you. Any ideas would be appreciated, cuz getting these points across to some people is akin to teaching a 3 year old the fundamentals of quantum physics. Lol.... "God" bless all of you !!

Anthony A.

matt · Joined: 05 Mar 2006 Posts: 50 Location: Dublin, Ireland

Hi there.

You know, sometimes it can be very hard to have people listen to us, no matter how complete our argument is. Sometimes we deal with this through repetition, other times by talking louder and becoming argumentative and sometimes we simply give up in apathy. Are these correct approaches? If some one isn't listening, then... what do we do?

In chemistry, we know that a chemical reaction (a "system") has two sides to the equation. Some systems are in a state of equilibrium, others can be explosive and yet others require a suitable catalyst for anything to happen at all. Communication between people is just like this. Can you see the parallels with the previous paragraph?

If we look at our situation using this tool, then we can realise something: when we insert energy in to the equation, we tend to get a reaction; too much energy and we get the wrong reaction, too little and there is nothing. Sometimes we get an explosion, other times a damp squib. So then we need to be sure that the equation can actually sustain the energy - and of the type or quality we are able to insert. This is quite profound, because when you consider this in terms of an argument, sometimes the only way to stop the "explosion" is simply to walk away and say not one single word; to withdraw all energy.

When we are truly centred and not dictated to by our ego, then we actually don't care what other people think or even say about us. We know who we are and we have no need of someone else's opinion. If we react to harsh or untrue words about ourselves, we should always observe ourselves for therein our ego can be identified. We can witness the root cause of our reaction and transform this in to something else and most often passion is a good start because from passion we can find love. So to return to the subject of this thread, sometimes there is simply no need to expound our beliefs. By doing so, it could well be that we are compensating for something.

If someone were to earnestly enquire about our understanding, then what a wonderful opportunity to share our light! But we should not seek to share with people with closed ears. We may argue that we must share to help these people, to guide them, but this is not always a truly spiritual path. The greatest compassion is to allow someone to make mistakes and to learn from these without interfering. This is the compassion of the Divine and something we need to nurture within ourselves. Of course, we can always remain available - and that is enough. The Divine is available yet does not "interfere" unless invited in to our lives. This is a very good picture indeed, for it is something we can easily grasp.

You know, sometimes the only way to get over a wall is to climb it. Big walls are hard to climb, so over time events conspire to raise the ground about us until the wall becomes a simple step. The problem with this is that we no longer realise we were blocked by a wall and take our step... to fall very far and very flat the other side. Life is a series of walls. Some people fall flat after the first wall and never walk again. Others realise the nature of the walls and learn to climb. Listening and not listening to reason has a "wall" nature so just a few words can sometimes raise the ground about someone so that one day they can take that step. Be patient, for all seeds will have their day.

*bright blessings*

michellepetkus · Joined: 16 Jan 2006 Posts: 809 Location: Chicago, IL

Hi Anthony,

It is interesting how you opened your post with a very insightful observation about how we are all in this power struggle of always trying to be right. And then it turns out that you are in exactly that type of situation with your sister. You believe your views to be correct and you want your sister to open her mind yet your sister probably believes that you have strayed from the path of righteousness by not following her religion to the letter. Hence she is trying to force her views on you and you are trying to resist by getting her to see things your way. The thing you have to remember is in as much as you believe your views to be correct your sister has the same amount of conviction for hers. This means that no matter what you do your sister is going to resist you as much as you are resisting her. You are at a stalemate. This means it is probably best to walk away from the conflict. That doesn?t mean you have to reject your sister it just means you have to try to come to an understanding with her that each of you will keep your religious views to yourselves. Then sit back and wait. When your sister is ready to go past the guilt fear driven confines of her religion you will be there to help her cross. It may not happen in this lifetime but she will eventually grow to where you are. Until then have patience, lead by example, and offer advice if the opportunity arises. A little nugget of wisdom here and there, if not forced down the throat, can go a long way.

Best of Luck,

Michelle

smile · Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 2 Location: New York

Ironically a 3 year old could probably teach all of us a thing or two about quantum physics ! They live much more in a quantum way at that "age" then we do !!

The question is ....why does it bother you so much ?

As much as you probably do not want to hear it ...but your sister is your teacher in this case ...pointing out to you what you need to " own"... meaning getting to the point that what other people say or do doesn't phase you .... but rather that irritation in you excites you as an opportunity to see what you need to work on ...what you need to own...

You are her teacher as well but that isn't of your concern ..only to your EGO ! Was nice to hear that wasn't it ??

Instead of being pissed at her ..change your perspective and BE GRATEFUL TO HER!! Your gratitude attitude WILL change your perspective, frequency and thus your Reality ! And in a way your sister as well because she will have no choice but to change..your frequency is different so she will have to react differently ! The old saying ..If you want someone else to change you must change FIRST!

Hey Anthony ..One can only experience Life from one's own perspective ..other people just mirror your thoughts and issues ! It's your play...you choose the actors, the action and also what is coming out of their mouths ! Believe it or not !!

So how 's that for some quantum physics for ya?

LOVE TO ALL ... Very Happy

aLx · Joined: 21 Dec 2005 Posts: 137 Location: Philippines

as the saying we know goes "the insights will come to those who are ready, one by one it will reveal itself"

no need to worry about your sis, she is in her own evolution...

coincidences will guide her...

just always be there to be a support member to anybody you love..

LOVE is the word...yeah!
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If God is our target destination, we cant miss. God is so big. He's everything, we have nowhere else to go.

Reverend Loush · Joined: 18 Mar 2006 Posts: 148 Location: texas

i am a christian......i must say that the origional post sounds very hateful...........if i might offer a different perspective of my religion! yes i do believe there is a God in the sky listening to my prayers! there is a speretness between me and God, but it is not a complete seperatness.......at the most basic fundamental level we are all one because we are all energy.......that does not me that you aren't you and i am not me........we are seperate but one! this is not fear based but a simple fact or truth! there is a God, outside of me, but he is also within me and we are part of eachother, just as we all are part of eachother and of everything that exists! this is what Christ taught! there is man whose work i loved very much named joseph campbell perhaps the worlds premier mythologion! he did not have a good grasp of my faith however! he just could not get the very simple concept that the idea of a personal God outside of ourselves, does not negate the idea that God is also transendent and within us! od is everywhere and in everything, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnisceint! all present! all powerful! all knowing! indeed he is knowing! and he is what is to know! this is not fear based! most people do not understand that when we talk of God fearing or holy fear, it is not what humans in this time period know of as fear, but it is actually ultamit love and respect! which as Christ taught is the greatest commandment! Smile

i think God does have a plan for us all and for the universe, this plan is ever evolving us! i am not a bystander! i have a part to play! i have a choice! i came here with a purpose! i was sent here with great intent! the insights teach us that this is not accidental! that there is a greater force opperating behind the scenes! so in reality you and your family are not that different in your beliefes! you just have a different perspective of the process! perhaps more advanced or maybe not! maybe just different! i do believe that God judges us! not as we understand the word maybe, but he lets us know if what we are doing is for our own good, or indeed the highest good of all! and i believe we judge ourselves far worse than he does! his judgements are just, ours are clouded by fear and false pride, and arrogance, and competition! Gd's love is beyond all of that! i do believe that he hears all of my prayers, and they go out and affect the universe and my reality! we all have a responcibility to use the freedom, choices, and power that God gave us in a constructive way to help the global shifting and the evolution of humanity and indeed the universe! i won't debate the divinity of Christ with you! i think he was God incarnate and you don't! i don't really care about your beliefe in all that as it is inbetween you and God! but i do think that it behooves you not to discount somebody elses wisdom and truth just because you know something different about quantum reality! the insights teach us to intergrate all truth, untill we are left with ultamit truth! i hope things get better between you and your family! remember they are beings on a journy, just like you! Smile

you see God as just a force, while i know God as a person and a force! we are all just scratching the surface of reality, not just your sister but you too! all of us! i hope you find resolution to the conflict and try not to get caught up in any control dramas! just remember to stop, breath, relax, connect, let go, and let the perception of beauty and the holy spirit God power to flow through you! Smile

blessed be!

L
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Rev. Loush O'Raven

Blessed be most excellent! Smile

michellepetkus · Joined: 16 Jan 2006 Posts: 809 Location: Chicago, IL

Dear Reverend,

I don't know if it is my place to speak here but it seems as though your feelings may have been hurt or you may have taken his comments a little too personally. It seems to me that Anthony does believe in some form of a God but he may be a little unclear as to what exactly he believes that form to be. I also think he may be confused about the difference between Church and religion. The reason I say this is that I personally believe that Christianity in and of itself holds a lot of the truths about life and how to live it in a positive way. But I think the Church has misconstrued those teachings in an effort to control its followers by using guilt and fear. If you act like this you will burn in hell if you do that God?s wrath will fall upon you, etc. I don?t think that is what Jesus intended when he came here to show us by example. He came here to show us the true meaning of love and I believe that there are many, many religious personnel; priests, reverends such as yourself, etc who know this and live by his true teachings. But I think Anthony is rebelling against the stifling negativity of those who are using Jesus? teachings to fulfill their need to feel superior. Basically he is rebelling against his sister trying to force her beliefs down his throat. But I do think he gets it for the most part. He does truly want to live the insights and whole heartedly wishes everyone could see the power and beauty behind them but he is rebelling against his perception of his sister?s judgment of him by judging her back. Which actually goes against the true nature of the insights. Once he realizes this you will see less judgment from him. At least that?s my take on it. If I misspoke Anthony you can and should post a clarification.

Sincerely,

Michelle

Reverend Loush · Joined: 18 Mar 2006 Posts: 148 Location: texas

i am not saying you are not right...............but if you read his post there is a definite negativity toward the christian religion! if anyone understands about family members shoving there beliefes down your throat it is me, and even people i am not related too! i grew up in a very religious household! my grandfathers a preacher and my whole family almost is in the ministry, and we are talking fundies, though they are not always wrong! but as you said..............him judgeing her for her being judgemental is a poor way to go about things! actually it is down right childish and solves nothing! i do not mean to sound harsh but i am going to sound that way to get my point accross! two wrongs don't make a right! and if you read his post you will notice a definite er of "i know so much more than my sister ever could"! at least that is how it reads! and yes for everyones info, i have been insulted one too many times as of late! i am so tired of everyone avoiding dealing with truth and their own issues by blameing my religion! Christianity has been a scapegoat for people to blame for way too long! so i say stop blaming my religion, stop blaming yourself, stop blaming God or the devil, or judgemental family members, or the goverenment, or anything else! just stop! and start taking responcibility for your self and your own actions! look there comes a time in the life of every adult when they have to stop and take stock of their own lives! i am speaking about self evaluation! no one is better than anyone else! that is just the truth! he said that his sister is scraching the surface of reality, well so is he, and me, and you, and everyone else! that is all i was trying to say! the insights are about intergrating truth! so maybe if he listens to his sister with full conciousness and a different perspective, and purpose, he could actually find some truth to what she is saying! we must all learn how to listen to people differently especially when we think there is something negative about them! it is only by doing this that we can begin to not only get over our own control dramas, but help people get over theirs, and also it is the only way to deal with someone stuck in a negative control drama; to speak to them and not get sucked into their drama! that is all i was trying to say! but yes it did come accross as deffensive because it was! we all know the history of christianity; the good and the bad! and we her quite frequent talk of judisim and islam and all of their "negativity"! what about focusing on what is good about these religions and what they have to contribute! in highschool i tried on every single religion that you can think of! let me tell you there is major problems with all of them! buddhism, wiccanism, new ageism, taoism, etc............... the list could go on and on! but instead of focusing on what i consider wrong with them, i try and take what is true from them! and that is what the insights teach! to celebrate what is the same and different about each of us, not fight over what is different in each of us! it solves nothing in the end! haven't we learned that yet in all these centuries?! and on preists and the like controling people! i am sorry i just have to say i am a little tired of buck passing! when does our power become our responcibility! you can not control somebody who does not want to be controlled! they have to let you do it to them! they have to be weak in some way! it is not that i can't have compassion on weakness! i have been weak in my life for certin, as we all have! but there comes a point when enough is enough and we have to snap out of it and wake up and claim or reclaim our power! if not then we want to be weak! it is like doctor phil always says! "so what's your pay off"? the pay off usually is that they don't have to take responcibility for their own lives, and the roles they currently find themselves in! i will share one of my biggest sins with yall! i confess to you, that i am a twenty six year old man and i am still not fully self sufficiant from my family! i let myself become co-dependent on them instead of standing on my own two feet! there are many reasons for this but no excuses! i am working on changing my life! i am starting up my own buissness and and trying to save money! but i don't blame anyone for my life circumstance! this is all my own doing and my own creation! and if i don't like it than i have to create something new! are we going to let our sins drag us down as some congregations would have it, or will we rise above them and do what we were put here to do!?! i did take his comments personally.....they are about my religion and nothing on this planet or any other is more personal than that! that is at the very core of who i am! and it is my duty as a minister of God to defend the faith when i perceive it is being attacked! as for him not believing in God, i never said that! he clearly believes in a non personal god! all i said was that he knew God as a force, while i know God as a person and a force and that those two truths don't cancel eachother out! this is just my truth and i ask none to share it! i do think however we all need to start listening differently! and i am not taking myself out of that! i need to listen better just like everyone else does! "he who has ears to hear let him hear"! i think this is the next step in getting past our control dramas! people who have been living the insights for years now seem to think they are free from their dramas! we forget how easy it is for us to slip back into them! out of fear, or guilt, or anger, or feeling misunderstood, or not heard! we must remember the conection; the perception of beauty! he asked if anyone had ideas! well i have one! any time that you anthony or anyone else including me runs into closed mindedness, we should stop, change our perception, listen differently, see the beauty, see the God, and try and find the higher self expression of the one we are talking too! just as the eighth insight teaches us! maybe if you can uplift your sister instead of her draging you down it would really help! truly i think it will, so maybe you can try that! Smile

i hope this clarifies my postion and my post on the matter! if not i will try and explain it a different way! Smile

i really do not mean to sound angry or superior! i am not! i am just passionate about my own truth, and maybe a little defensive! Smile

blessed be! Smile

L
_________________
Rev. Loush O'Raven

Blessed be most excellent! Smile

matt · Joined: 05 Mar 2006 Posts: 50 Location: Dublin, Ireland

Actually, for me, I think we should be talking about full stops and exclamation marks. That's where the mystery of lives unfold *lol*

michellepetkus · Joined: 16 Jan 2006 Posts: 809 Location: Chicago, IL

Dear Reverend,

I am truly sorry that you feel personally attacked. I think on one level you are justified in your feelings. You are correct that there seems to be some dissention about religion and I may have added to the confusion in my original post to Anthony which I appologize for so I will clarify my impression. I think in regards to religion people don?t realize that their anger is displaced. They hold a religion, Christianity, responsible for the misguidance of the Church. Let me explain. I was raised a Catholic. I went to Church and went through all the classic rituals of Communion and Confession. But through it all, even as a small child, I could not accept what they were trying to teach me. It wasn?t that I didn?t believe in God. I figured there had to be a God or some higher power that created us or why would we even be here. The problem I had was with the Church?s interpretation of God. If God is suppose to be pure love then why in the world would he want to judge us and strike us dead for being human? If we are all born sinners and pretty much doomed to being unable to reach the level of enlightenment of God then why in the world do we even need to be here? If all it takes to make it to heaven is to say you are sorry why in the world should people be good when they can muck up the world and apologize on their death-bed? That hardly seems fair to the rest of us. But if you don?t say your sorry why would a loving God want to doom anyone to spend eternity burning in hell? That seems extreme. And the biggest sticking point of all was the one shot deal. How in the world, with all the different types of people, nice, mean, and somewhere in between, could it be that there was only one life? So I spent most of my childhood trying to answer all the contradictory questions the Church put in my head. I pretty much figured Christianity got it wrong until I went to college and took a religion class. I decided for my final paper I would write about Christianity. I asked my mother for help and she gave me a book. The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels. The book basically explained that in the early days of Christianity many versions of the religion were forming and all were in a battle for parishioners. To make a long story short, the Orthodox Christians, who later became the Catholic Church as we know it today, were the most powerful with the largest following. How did they manage to get the largest following? Basically, even though people like to romanticize about the long gone eras, life has never been as easy or comfortable as we have it today. Life was hard work just to survive. The Orthodox Christians knew this and basically said come be with us and you will go to heaven in one lifetime. And the people came because why in the world would anyone want to come back to such a tough existence again and again in order to make it to heaven. So the Orthodox Christians with the most power basically banned any version of Christianity that did not follow their beliefs and essentially burned their scriptures and crucified their followers. No one would even know that the Catholic Church may have it wrong if it weren?t for a few brave Gnostic Christians who buried their texts until they were found in the 1950s.

So to clarify, I am a believer in Christianity. I think Jesus was our role model and his teachings hold all the keys to our true path here on Earth. I also believe those teachings can be found in the Bible. But I can?t join the Catholic Church and be a part of their version of Christianity because I don?t think their interpretations of the Bible and Christ?s teachings are correct. I can?t speak for anyone else but myself but I think that others may also be coming to this conclusion but they just don?t realize that they are blaming the religion instead of blaming the misguidance of a few men who ruled during a time of uncertainty. Where does that leave the Church? I personally think they will have to evolve to a more open less judgmental version of Christianity before I would go back. I am totally with you on the personal responsibility issue. But I think the Catholic Church with their version of God as a superior being doling out judgments enables people to play the victim more than anything else because it allows them to blame outside forces, God himself, for all that is wrong in their life instead of showing them that it is their actions that create their world for good or bad. Can the Church change with the evolving views of the world? I?m not really sure in that the people who started the misinterpretations in the first place are long gone and those that are in charge now truly believe that the version as it was presented to them is correct. To ask them to change is to ask them to abandon who they are. But I do think Christianity can and will survive if people like you are willing to reinterpret the classic teachings of Christ back to their original meaning or at least into less judgmental interpretations. This may mean you will need to walk away from the Church and start your own version of Christianity but it can be done. I will use a quote you made in, Religious Parallels within The Celestine Prophecy, as an example.

You wrote: ?the verse actually says "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, vengence does not belong to you but is mine sayeth the lord"....meaning we are not suppose to try and take vengence, God will do that for us through the divine system of the law of karma which he has instituted........and it is not about revenge as we think of it, but rather about teaching lessons that desperately need to be learned by some people! well all people really at one time or another or several in our lives!?

I have heard this verse but it was always interpreted that God himself as a superior being to us will exact the revenge by sending them to hell. This puts fear and guilt into the follower as he becomes afraid of God and his wrath rather than as you interpreted it as more of a cause and effect consequence for a wrongful/negative action. I don?t know that this was the best example but I wanted to point out the difference between a guilt/fear driven interpretation to one that puts the responsibility for our growth squarely on us.

In any event, I?ve probably talked too much. But I will back up my original statement that I do think Anthony gets it. He gets it on an intellectual level but his actions/reactions are still coming from old negative habits/thought patterns. Once he realizes this and breaks those old patterns he will become less judgmental of his sister, religion, and life in general.

Sincerely,

Michelle

cj5269 · Joined: 10 Apr 2006 Posts: 2 Location: Southern Maine

As someone who attends a congregational church I can sometimes cringe at the things credited to Christians in the media. My feeling is like the bumper sticker - "The Christian Right is neither". For me God, Christ, Allah, Jehovah, Goddess etc... are all the same energy just a different name. That energy to me is love - when I want for others the same I want for myself I am close to that place.

You don't have to change anything about your sister - you need to connect with why what she says bothers you, particularly if you know how you feel in your own heart. Many people don't understand the difference in religion and spirituality. I tend to live by the feeling that where there is fear love cannot be - so I try not to get sucked into fear based thinking. Trust your process and that perhaps the conversation she is trying to have with you is to teach you an important lesson. Having the conversation - listening more than talking may teach you something or it could open her perspective - the trick is to speak and act with love.

ronni · Joined: 10 Apr 2006 Posts: 16

The point is...it doesn't matter in the new world vision what religion one aligns self with. We are not here to judge one another but to merely acknowledge our simularities.

Skky · Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: Michelle, respectfully said...

I just wanted to say that I agree with you Michelle. I myself had the same experiences as Michelle. Beautiful the way you shared your truth, in such love.
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LIVE, LOVE, LAUGH!!!!!

Anthony79 · Joined: 04 Apr 2006 Posts: 4 Location: Phoenix, AZ

Thank you all for your replies ! On a personal note to the Reverend, I apologize for insulting you, that was not my intention. I just feel like so many christians have judged and insulted ME over the course of my life, for one reason or another....mainly because my actions didn't "serve the lord". So YES, as Michelle was saying, I did feel inferior to a higher being, instead of feeling inter-connected with one. And maybe this judging on their part was due to the church's brain washing power over them. I just feel like christianity is so black and white at times....you CAN do this.....you CAN'T do that ! I just dont see it that way.

I know I have joined the need to be right control drama, especially when it comes to denouncing religion as the curse of the world. I am trying to look at the good in christianity, and it was a very good point that was made about getting back to what Jesus really wanted for the world. And I do agree that his intention has been severely skewed over the course of time. And I also agree with the question of if we can't supposedly achieve the level of enlightenment that christ did, then why ARE we here ? I think we can achieve this level, in fact it has become my greatest motivation for my life. I want to see how enlightened we can all become as a functioning whole....maybe then we will realize why we are here !!!

Theressa · Joined: 11 Apr 2006 Posts: 793 Location: UK

Hi Anthony,

I smiled when I read your first post. I was brought up a catholic and was told to stop asking questions of the priest. I found my own spiritual path or rather it found me. For years I did not want to know God. He was too controlling. Religion was too controlling. It was too judgemental and I was never going to heaven because I was a naughty girl for not obeying. Then I found REIKI and my ideas changed.

I remember when it first started was when I went to personal centered counselling and my therapist told me about the celestine prophecy and wow it challenged all I'd ever known. Then I found Reiki and well I am so glad that I do not have to wait until the end to be punished or go to hell or wonder if I'll ever get to heaven. I much prefer the cause and effect concept.

Anthony you can't change these people, all you can do is lead by example. We are all evolved at different levels and maybe that's how it should be.

I know that REIKI, the conversations with God and the celestine prophecy are of a different perspective than christianity and I also believe that they are more aligned with self esteem. But I can't change others minds. I can only live my life.

I asked an old friend why she thought that GOD would be up in the sky judging her? What sort of God would he be? If he was going to judge us what would be the point in giving us free will?

I prefer Eastern philosophies.

Hope to speak to you soon. Anthony.

Blessings

Theressa